Discussion about the 2012-2013 proposed budget, which will be posted here.
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Discussion about the 2012-2013 proposed budget, which will be posted here.
Let's start with the budget that was not approved at the AGM:
$1000 surplus from 2011
-$500 to Bob Gillanders for filing taxes
-$250 support to Olympiad players/ supporting people such as coaches etc
Approximate $2000 for next year (assuming its similar to this year)
–$500 Ontario Open
–$500 OYCC
–$250 OHSCC
–$250 Ontario team championships
–$250 Women's Championship
–$250 Senior's Championships
Total $2000
Chris has correctly mentioned that the Ontario Closed is supposed to occur this year and therefore there should be funding for it. This is traditionally an event which receives $500 funding I believe, so therefore I propose that the $250 for both the women's as well as senior's championships this year go towards the closed instead.
Are there any other suggestions?
Rob, this is still not a budget, it's a spending outline... and it's the exact one that was already not approved... :(
I would personally like to see a full list of anticipated income/expenses, as well as an up-to-date balance sheet for the OCA. See the financial reports I did for the 2009 OCA AGM (available on the OCA website) to see what I mean.
Chris,
Fair enough, I figured that the proposed expenditures for the following year was what people may be hung up on. The rest of the budget is pretty straight forward since our income is an estimation based on our previous year's rebates, but I'll put something together.
Attachment 81
Attachment 82
Hey All,
I did some work on the first couple pages of the format that Chris was talking about that people seemed to like. Unfortunately, I worked tonight and just got home so progress is limited and there are probably a couple errors (it can certainly be more clear after I quickly read over it) which I will try to fix tomorrow but it is a work in progress and a starting point. I welcome feedback and I have sent this to Brett to get his input.
Hi Rob and Chris
Rob, I sent you an email today, with 5 attachments (2012 Treasurer's report, and 2011 and 2012 Income and Expense and 2011 and 2012 Balance Sheets, the same ones which Bob Gillanders will be using to complete the 2011 and 2012 tax returns. It would be useful to have these documents posted somewhere in this meeting spot, so people can review them and ask questions if they feel like it. Maybe you could forward my email to Chris as he may know how to do this if you don't. Thanks! I think this will facilitate discussion.
Afternoon all,
These are the documents Brett sent to me.
Based on my somewhat brief inspection of the above five documents, the numbers appear to add up in each. Looks like a job well done, Brett. :)
Some comments, questions and suggestions:
It's unfortunate that funding for the coming Ontario Closed was omitted or overlooked in this version of a budget, which was, however, defeated at the recent 2012 online OCA AGM.
Regarding the still relevant suggested expenditures in that defeated budget, I regard $500 for an Ontario Open, plus $500 for an Ontario Closed and $500 for an OYCC as all but obligatory expenditures.
However, I am loath to see any of the OHSCC, Ontario Team Championships, Ontario Women's Championship or Senior's Championship have little or no funding from the OCA, but I personally feel all of these are lesser flagship events for the province than the Ontario Open, Ontario Closed or OYCC. It's my guess that most OCA Governors would feel similarly, at least regarding the other four being the lesser flagship events. Indeed, some, if not many, may feel that the Ontario Team Championship, without being organized in a recent year, is the least of the lesser flagship events.
My first question would be, in the opinion of the OCA Executive, could we actually afford to spend more than $2000 in total on all or any combination of the seven events mentioned above? If so, how much more?
Perhaps we may discover that we can barely afford to fund all seven of these events as much as we would like to after all. Only another $500 is necessary for that. Or maybe we could seriously consider running a deficit, for at least this year.
Alternatively, we might fund each or any of what I have called the lesser flagship events with a smaller amount than what we would prefer.
If we are indeed to spend only $2000 on all seven events, I would suggest either:
1) we take a vote at the present meeting on which two 'lesser flagship events' (of the four I listed) to give each $250 in funding to, giving no funding to each of the other two lesser flagship events, or else:
2) we could give $125 to each of the four lesser flagship events I listed.
There may be a more precise method of determining how to distribute funding to these four lesser events, but my suggested options 1) and 2) might at least be perceived as being fair to many Governors, players, organizers, or observers concerned with these four lesser flagship events who are also following this meeting's proceedings.
I think we risk spreading ourselves too thinly here. $125 is not really a whole lot, especially for events that aren't normally run (see Team Championship) - it's not enough to encourage the event to be run, IMHO.
Then you have an event like the OHSCC, which is not even run or overseen by the OCA. I don't mind the traditional donation to this event, but I would be against increasing it from $250 at the expense of any of the other events - at least not until we can find a way to grow our budget!
I agree with Chris here, I am hesitant to run a deficit unnecessarily. The OHSCC is a great event and after talking to Chris I believe the money goes a long way. The senior's and women's should be supported, but I'm not sure how (this year) we can. Since they are run every two years I believe (and it was supposed to be this upcoming fiscal year), it may make sense to alternate the Closed and then the Senior's and Women's. This may also appeal to some since I knew there was some disenchantment over the fact that we were (in a way) supporting an event in B.C. this year. Therefore we could support the Closed this year with the intention of supporting a senior's and women's next year.
Therefore just to lay it out, my proposed spending is as follows:
$1000 surplus from 2011
-$500 to Bob Gillanders for filing taxes
-$250 support to Olympiad players/ supporting people such as coaches etc
Approximate $2000 for next year
–$500 Ontario Open
–$500 OYCC
–$250 OHSCC
–$250 Ontario Team Championships
–$500 Ontario Closed
Total $2000
Also, I think things are fairly clear with the combination of Brett's documents and myself having done the first two pages of the format from the 2009 Treasurer's report. If people still don't understand anything please post your questions and/or comments.
Hi Kevin
First, thanks for your kind comments about the income statements and balance sheets.
Originally, I had thought we would give $250 each to the Seniors and Womens events, based on hazy recollections of the 2011 meeting, but this was corrected when Rob pointed out that we had agreed on funding $125 each, and it was so changed as an Account Payable on the 2012 statements. So we are down to only requiring $2250 if we fund all the events we would like, which is possible. However there are still a couple of things to consider.
We have just over $1000 until we receive approximately $2300 (could be lower based on CFC members) from CFC in November, for the first 6 months. We have to pay out $2250 if we agree on this budget for the seven events, plus we have to pay out $500 to Bob G for doing the taxes and $250 to support Olympic team, leaving us with only a couple hundred dollars until the next Annual meeting.
Depending on when we have to pay $500 for the 2012 Ontario Closed, and Bob G $500 is an issue. If this $1000 is paid out before November, then we will have $76 in the account until November, so we can't even support the Olympic team until the next CFC rebate.
Something to think about!
Kevin, thanks for your kind words about the income statements and balance sheets, and I hope everyone else can understand them.
If we want to spend $2250 on seven events ($125 for Seniors and Womens), it may be possible. It assumes we will get $2300 approx from CFC in November and again next May. We have $1000 approx. in the account until November, but 2012 statement has already calculated payouts for 2012 Women's and Seniors events, so I guess we want to do the same for 2013. I guess we have to pay out now for 2012 Ontario Closed, and give Bob $500 for taxes. So we have $76 left after doing this until November.
Rob, is it possible for you to combine some aspects of Brett's documents and your proposed spending (including the Ontario Closed, and excluding the Senior's and Women's Championships) into a single post or document that would be our latest proposed (and then also more formal) budget, which we could then vote on?
From another post of yours:
Therefore just to lay it out, my proposed spending is as follows:
$1000 surplus from 2011
-$500 to Bob Gillanders for filing taxes
-$250 support to Olympiad players/ supporting people such as coaches etc
Approximate $2000 for next year
–$500 Ontario Open
–$500 OYCC
–$250 OHSCC
–$250 Ontario Team Championships
–$500 Ontario Closed
Total $2000
I don't have any great objection to this proposed spending, now that I've read Brett's and your latest comments. However someone might wish to propose an amendment to this proposed spending, such as voting for a different combination of what I've called lesser flagship events to be funded and others not to be. Please let us know if you believe a motion with a seconder would be required for such, as I'm not aware if this need for motions applies to this meeting.
One small question from the balance sheet: Why are the league rebates from 2011 listed only as estimates?
I don't want to put words in Brett's mouth but its possible it was based on previous membership statistics. No doubt these statements took a great deal of time to put together. The values given in my first page of the format Chris wanted is the correct breakdown after the AGM.
What I would really like to see would be, on a single page, the last two or three years' actual income and expenditures, with bank balances from the bottom of each year's column carried through to the top of the next year's. The upcoming year's estimated income and proposed spending could then be compared directly to analogous moneys from previous years.
I appreciate what Brett says in his report about unpaid volunteer work, and I'm not expecting him to do it. But I really liked, e.g., what Egis started putting together at the AGM.
Once done, such a document would be easy to add to next year.
Hi Marcus,
I would love to see a similar document. This is something that we could potentially do going forward for sure but I really don't want to go backwards. I don't feel comfortable enough with the information from previous years to be able to put together such a document. Besides, if we make such a document I have a feeling that rather than trying to go forward, we would get bogged down by past shortcomings. A fair amount of this happened at the tail end of the AGM.
I would like to focus on going forward. This is where we are and I have no control over past presidents or their actions/decisions. What I want from this meeting is for people to be able to see where we are now and how we intend to go forward. Of course from this point on I want transparency and accountability. Hence my intention to have these meetings online from now on.
Hi Rob & Marcus
Marcus, there was a typo in the 2012 balance sheet, as the league rebates estimates obviously were for the 2012 year. They were estimates, because Rob had to work out figures based on the postal codes of CFC members (a thankless task done after the Annual General Meeting). With 4 geographical areas, OCA paid out each league based on CFC members living in their area.
We had $2,349 approximately to give out (about half our revenues). Each league would get rounded up to the nearest $10 (from past practice), which would explain the $21 discrepancy over the amount Rob has calculated of $2370. So if Rob calculated the league would get $1077 (GTCL) it would be rounded up to $1080. The$720, $450 and $120 would have been worked out in the same way.
Rob, I never got an email from you confirming the amounts in your proposed budget, but am glad they are open for discussion now. Obviously, this is what we are voting on, and when we do, I can amend the 2012 income statement to show league rebates payable of $2370, meaning we will then have $1,055.26 left, $21 less than before. The balance sheet can be changed and this info will be given to Bob G for the tax returns.
It seems to me that the decision to give Bob G $500 is a simple 2012-13 operating expense and the same will be true of $500 Ontario Closed Funding assuming that tournament takes place during this year as well as $250 Olympic funding. We have few payables and receivables to worry about at our year end, but I can see why that confuses some people. I think that's why you, Marcus, are asking if this could be made into a simpler format. Almost no business uses the cash basis of accounting(you earn and spend when money is put into or taken out of the account), opting for the accrual method instead (involving payables and receivables), which is what we are doing. To try to simplify this for everyone, I added some payable and receivable info onto the income statement which normally doesn't appear on these documents, to provide a bridge to the balance sheet, so that it would be effortless for those without an accounting background to understand it.
All that really matters is that volunteers who care enough about chess spend what little money there is wisely on behalf of the OCA, and the same is true of volunteers at the CFC level and league level. That's all we're voting on here.
Hi Kevin,
After some careful deliberating and consulting if there are any amendments that anyone wishes to make to the budget they should do so with a seconder.
I suppose that this would also be a good opportunity to call for any amendments or ask if anyone has an intention of making an amendment.
Hi Rob
I meant OCA Governor(s) might wish to put forward amendment(s) to your (or perhaps, rather, the Executive's) proposed second attempt at a budget, as given in this thread at this special meeting.
I was asking if for this meeting an 'amendment' to the budget would have to be sought by a motion that would require a seconder, as usual, now that the budget I refer to seems to have crystalized.
Earlier, you asked Governors (and others?) for suggestions regarding what might be in the budget, and I had supposed that at that stage the budget in question had not yet crystalized in the minds of the Executive. This was a source of some confusion for me, anyway.
If an amendment to the budget in question (now that it has apparently crystalized [see post #5 on page 1 of this thread]) first requires an amendment to the OCA Constitution, I wasn't aware of that, not recalling the constitution very well from the last time I (rather briefly) read it.
Working bar hours are killing me slowly. Thank you for the correction, it is of course what I meant and I apologize for any confusion my error caused.
Hi Rob and Chris
Chris, thanks for pointing out that the OCA must give out 50% of CFC rebates to the leagues, and my estimate of $2349 shown on the 2012 statements represented exactly half of what the CFC gave OCA in the 2012 year, from May 2011 to April 2012. Rob, on your translation of my income statement, you indicated $2340 to give to the leagues, with no breakdown of percentage for each league. Then, in your sensible budget, you indicated $2370to the leagues, with a breakdown for each league. So there may have been a typo, and I am assuming $2370 for discussion purposes. I am sure you got these figures and based them on postal code memberships from the 4 geographical areas. It is interesting to be tracking which leagues are attracting more CFC members, and which are losing members. Maybe we can use this information in some way to promote chess better, but that is maybe better discussed at an annual meeting.
I realize most OCA presidents, secretaries and VP's (1 from each league) will be OCA governors. As far as I know, I am just Treasurer of OCA, not a governor. But, I suppose no volunteer at OCA level needs to be a governor. In that case, are OCA executive members who are not governors able to vote for or against this budget? I don't really care, as long as sensible decisions are made.
You may be right, Brett, that the fact there is so little to report makes people uncomfortable, makes them think there must be more to know. !?
Still, whether it's done on a cash-flow basis or an accrual basis, couldn't we set up a multi-year chart? We're discussing funding events on a rotating basis, we're projecting CFC revenues - wouldn't all that be easier if we could see the past few years, together with projected receivables and planned spending for this year (and the next, even?) all on one chart?
E.g. If the amount we plan to "donate" (so it's been put) to OHSCC is an annual amount, while the Closed is biannual, or if it's an increase compared to previous years, etc., shouldn't that be made clear? Otherwise it takes extraordinary efforts (or intimate familiarity) to assess the proposed budget.
As far as I can tell from the constitution:
http://www.chessontario.com/newconstitution.htm
- only the governors vote. While the president automatically becomes a governor and the VPs must already be, the other officers neither need be governors to stand for election nor become governors upon being elected to office. So no, it seems you aren't able to vote. At least from what I can tell.
Hi Brett,
The income statements on two pages are not for the same years. The $2370 was for the past year (2011-2012) while the $2340 (2012-2013) was a crude approximation of what will be given to the leagues in this current year. Clearly this is subject to change and I see no point in making a further estimation of the individual league breakdowns. People said they wanted a rough estimate for the upcoming year of incomes and expenses so that is what the $2340 is.
Secondly, I am sad to say that you are not able to vote despite being the most educated and knowledgeable person by far on the subject (in my opinion). However, I know your voice carries weight and have no doubt that the governorship will listen to what you say concerning the budget.
Hi Marcus
Unfortunately, I have more work in my professional life I must attend to than figure out ways to do multi-year charts regarding the OCA finances.
When you compare the 2011 and 2012 income statements and balance sheets, you will notice the similarity of each regarding revenue and expenditures, and then understand why Rob is proposing the 2012-13 budget he has spent time thinking about. The 2013 statements will most likely not differ drastically from the previous 4 which I have done.
Until the OCA has more money to spend, there will be limitations on what the organization can do. A better picture may emerge when the tax returns are finally completed, as often tax software does allow for multi-year summaries to be generated. In any event, it will show the evolution of the non profit entity from inception about a decade ago to today.
Questions regarding $500 for taxes:
Will a contract be signed with R.Gillanders?
What are conditions that R.G. will need to fulfill to get $500?
(I don't want to see another $500 for taxes the next year to do the same work.)
I intended nothing that formal, simply that once the the returns were filled to cut Bob a cheque for $500 along with an immense amount of gratitude. This is not about paying him to do the work imo, this is trying to show a small amount of gratitude for pulling our fat out of the fire. The tax situation has gone unanswered far too long and we need to rectify it. Having it done professionally may in fact bankrupt us as we're looking at almost a decade of returns now.
Egis, believe me we're on the same page; but more than money with these returns its something we just need to do. Bob agreeing to help us is an act of charity on his part so I really don't want to rock the boat or hassle him about this. That being said, I never tip before my meal shows up.
Thank you Rob. As they say, it is not about the money. I had been hoping for years now that somebody else would clean up this mess, but I finally concluded that that wasn't going to happen. My curiosity about the infamous "box of documents" and OCA finances finally got the better of me.
But now I face the same challenge as others have, incomplete financial records. So I will be looking to others with knowledge of those earlier years (2003-2006) for assistance.
Hi Rob, Bob, Chris and Marcus
Once the 2012-13 budget is voted on (I support it even though I am not a governor), the 2012 income statement and balance sheet can be slightly amended with the correct figure (instead of an estimate) for the league payments. I think one minor change to the proposed budget would be to plug in the figure of $2349 (instead of $2340) as it represents exactly 50% of revenue from the CFC and we're supposed to give at least that amount back(maybe slightly more if the 4 figures are rounded up to the nearest $10).
Rob, I am sure you have a very good idea of the CFC members in each league after your analysis of postal codes (thanks for doing that) of CFC members who joined or renewed between 1 May 2011 and 30 April 2012.
I think since this is a public discussion about the budget, we will, as OCA executives, try to stay close to it in our actions during the year. It must be understood that minor variations may occur (such as a slight change of the amount given to leagues from $2349 for rounding purposes).
Bob, maybe we can talk about strategy for arriving at some figures to do the taxes for the first 3 years for the years ending 30 April 2004, 2005 and 2006 as OCA was incorporated around November 2003. Since we have the bank accounts, starting at the beginning of 2004, we should be able to come up with rough estimates of CFC amounts, and Trillium deposits, as well as expenses (even if some are miscellaneous). There must be some proposed budgets for each year somewhere, and Hal Bond may be a useful source of info, as he was acting as Treasurer for some of the time.
Marcus,
If you wanted to start trying to put together such a spreadsheet I would definitely give as much guidance as I could. I'm also sure that approaching other past presidents would also shed more light. After talking to Brett I know he's incredibly busy right now and I know he's put a lot of time into the current documents (which he deserves a big thank you for, rather than more work). However, if you are interesting in creating a spreadsheet such as the one you mentioned please feel free to contact me.
I said already that I take Brett's point from his report that he's not the one to do this. I never meant to imply I was asking him to do it. In fact, I thought Egis already had it well underway, but if it falls to me ...
I don't even think it should be very difficult. It seems we have one source of revenue (from CFC memberships), half of which we give back to the leagues. Then we have about six tournaments we give money to, plus a few odds and ends. Five years at ten? entries per year shouldn't be too hard to put together. I think if I dig around in this thread I should find the past two years and the proposed budget for the one upcoming. Where do I look for the 2009 and 2010 reports?
@Rob, if If you want to send something directly to my email, that'll make it even easier for me.