Presidential Debate: Quebec Membership

[Fred McKim]

A question for the candidates is: As a Quebec Prseident - what measures would you take to try to increase the number of CFC members in Quebec.

It's now Monday at 7:30pm EDT. Let's give the candidates 24 hours to respond, and perhaps interact, before general public comments begin. Any new candidates coming forward are also welcome to respond.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Fred:

From Pierre's post that he is moving, it seems we won't be hearing anything from him 'til after Thursday.

Bob

[Pierre Dénommée]

I have a good working relationship with Richard Bérubé in preparation of the FIDE arbiter Seminar in Montreal. He always have been nice to me for as far as I can remember. I write on arbiter's topics on the FQE web site, so I am in contact with the FQE.

The current FQE leadership is made of reasonable peoples. It is possible to talk to them but they told me that they find it very hard to talk to the CFC.

The fact that about 49% of the population of the province of Quebec have no pride in being Canadian is a far larger problem. Even if the FQE reafiliate tomorrow, many of its members would never accept to pay the membership of a foreign Federation. Unfortunately, many FQE members told me personally that they view the CFC as a foreign Federation and that their country is the Quebec. This is a very hard problem to solve for the CFC.

I do not believe that the FQE will ever affiliate as a normal province. The major irritant is sending money to the CFC which is something they want to avoid. Previously, before Marc Poulin brings in the sponsors, the FQE could not have financially survived without keeping all of its membership money.

There is also a lot of hatred between the two parties. Even at only 1 000 members during 10 years. the FQE would have contributed 380 000$ to the CFC budget. We would still have our building if Quebec had contributed as it should. We could have hired the best coaches for both our national teams...We lost at least 500 000$ in this conflict, something that is hard to forget and that did have dire consequences for us.

Those who pay the price of this dispute are the Quebec players who must pay two memberships if they want to play internationally. The double rating hurts everybody because the CFC does not take the FQE rating in consideration when inviting players to national events.

A good first step would be the removal of the double rating system. The FQE rates at 1,50$ compared with the 3$ that the CFC charges. With that in mind, it is extremely hard to sell the CFC rating to Quebec organizers. Why would they pay twice the price for the same service? I know it will sound silly to many Governors, but the FQE could rate all CFC games for this price and contrary to affiliation, this is something that they probably would be willing to do. The organizers would be happy, but the 1,50$ would flow out of our pocket instead of a 3$ profit.

One FQE official has complained about the SwissSys deal because this software is not endorsed by FIDE. When using a FIDE endorsed software, the results must be entered manually into SwissSys which is serious loss of time. The process is also error-prone.

The new price of the tournament membership also hurts the FQE. When it was more affordable, the FQE did pay a tournament memberships to all the players who were not CFC member in good standing. The FQE has discontinued this practice, thus reducing the number of CFC rated games played in Quebec.

The only CFC assets that the FQE wants are access to FIDE rated tournaments and to FIDE titles. Those are under the sole control of the CFC. I believe that they are satisfied with their rating except for high level players.

If the CFC becomes a Federation of Chess Clubs, the problem of Quebec affiliation would be simpler because the Provincial Associations would have a lesser role in the CFC Governance. The fact that one of them has a distinct treatment would be far less dramatic.

Maybe we should recognized what the House of Commons has already recognized, that Quebec is a distinct nation. The current state of CFC politics does not permit us to give a province anything that all the others do not have. This impose a big constrain on our ability to negotiate.

In a perfect world, the CFC finances would be so good that the membership money would not be required to balance the budget. In those conditions, it would be much easier to bring Quebec back. As long as the Conservative are in Ottawa, there will be neither money for Chess from Sports Canada nor Charitable status for Chess.

Neither side in this conflict have ever been able to propose a win-win solution. From the duration of the conflict, I can only deduce that such a solution is very hard to find. The primary problem is that the CFC has the FIDE membership and all the bells and whistles that comes with it whereas the FQE is empty handed. The CFC has already everything except the FQE affiliation. Furthermore, the relationship between a Canadian Federation and its Provincial Affiliate is usually a relation of authority, like the supervisor-employee relationship. The Quebec Soccer Constitution clearly acknowledges that Quebec Soccer is hierarchically inferior to the Canadian Soccer Association. Neither FIDE nor the CFC has ever insisted on the hierarchical aspect, so this is less of a problem.

The president may negotiate, but Quebec affiliation it is clearly a Governors' decision.

We would be much stronger united, but that would require from all parties involved a true will to unite which I have not felt yet.

If you want to increase CFC membership in Quebec, you must convince the organizers to run CFC rated tournaments. Currently, they have no good reason to do so because we charges twice the rating fee. Furthermore, if the tournament is not also FQE rated, there will not be enough players present to pay the bills of a weekend Swiss. The FQSÉ did the calculations and with the price of venue rental in Montreal, the organizer would loose money even if all the current Quebec CFC members would register. Having a tournament rated by both the CFC and the FQE means that all players must pay a double membership. Thia is a big hurdle.

The FQE and the CFC offers the same product: competitive chess. If you were to sell both products to a complete stranger who is unaware of the past history of both organizations, how do you think that he would choose?

Pierre

[Fred McKim]

There is also a lot of hatred between the two parties.

Pierre

I don't believe this is the case at all, it may have been true at one time - but enough time has passed with the status quo that a fresh start could be made.

[Christopher Mallon]

The problem I have always found with the FQE (and maybe it is different now, I don't know) is that all they ever want to do is talk - and rarely about anything substantive.

For example, when I was first elected as President, they went to all this trouble to set up a time with me to have a conference call, and on that call they went to all this effort to introduce all the Big Important People in the room (which was in a Very Important and Impressive Place at Olympic Stadium!)... and the net result of 45 minutes on the phone was "Hey, we should pick a time to talk about stuff"

Other attempts have been made but never amounted to much, or they backed out once discussions got serious.

[Pierre Dénommée]

The FQE has carried a motion stating that the goal of the FQE is to become a full member of FIDE. Until they show a proof that this motion has been rescinded, there is very little that can be done with the FQE. The motion might have been rescinded secretly (the FQE GL are not public). It is also possible that the current FQE leadership is not even aware of this old motion and that they are no longer actively pursuing this goal.



Other attempts have been made but never amounted to much, or they backed out once discussions got serious.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

Same as in politics Quebec must be treated equally the same as other provinces; no special perks! Luckily in politics the PQ has been almost rendered useless this year; time will for sure come for the same thing to happen in chess...

[Hugh Brodie]

FIDE members are either:

1) UN member countries.
2) UN observers (e.g. Palestine).
3) "Grandfathered" members (e.g. England, Scotland, Hong Kong).

Thus Quebec (or any other Canadian province, US state, other semi-autonomous regions such as the Basque region, Catalan region, etc.) would not be eligible.

[Michael von Keitz]

Our only leverage with the FQE is our role as FIDE gatekeeper. In this country, nothing is rated by FIDE, no players qualify as Zonal representatives to FIDE events and no FIDE titles are awarded, without first passing through the Chess Federation of Canada. If reconciliation proves out of the question, an open possibility is for us to heavily tax the FQE for the administrative resources they drain each time they submit FIDE-related paperwork.

To me, however, that is not a first step. Marc Poulin has done a great deal of good for the province of Quebec and he has even shown good will to a number of elite players from outside his own province. That aside, before Mr. Poulin ever chose to helm the FQE, Montreal had already played host to top-flight Canadian events, such as the Canadian Open, on more than one occasion. The bottomline is that we would stand to benefit from a functional relationship with the FQE and, provided we manage to clarify our own vision, the FQE might stand to benefit (ever so slightly) from us. The first step comes in identifying that vision, providing a framework for discussions with Marc Poulin & Co. I will outline my personal vision, which is by no means meant to be the final word, when I release my full platform either tomorrow or Thursday.

[Pierre Dénommée]

Does AIDEF has the right to organize a FIDE rated event over the objection of the relevant affiliated National Chess Federation? AIDEF is in a different class of member then a National Federation. This is an important issue to clarify because if it can, this is quite a blow to the Authority of the National Federations and I would be surprised that a FIDE AGM would have approved this.

[Pierre Dénommée]

I agree with Serge on this, a Federation is not a single person. Marc Poulin has brought a lot to the FQE but as far as the CFC is concerned, we are dealing with the FQE, not with a single great person.



Marc Poulin has brought sponsorship to the equation, that's for sure. I'm not sure how much you know M. Poulin though. As we speak, the FQE also has some problems, as his colleagues, FQE executive members keep resigning over and over again. I'd hate for the CFC to make the same mistake again and try to generalize the CFC vs FQE dealings with only a one person relationship. What about when he leaves ? You'll leave the FQE as well ? I agree with a lot of what you say here though. It's just that, from my point of view if the CFC is to establish an important membership drive, juniors are certainly in the equation, but the relationship with the FQE has to be at least as important.

[Pierre Dénommée]

During many years after the expulsion of the FQE, the Quebec Open has not been CFC rated at all. Because of the financial support of the Quebec Government, the FQE can exist without the CFC, but such existence would be dismal. Nowadays, the possibility of FIDE titles is what brings players to the Quebec Open highest sections. The FQE could exist alone, but this would be highly detrimental to the strongest players in the province.


Although we both know things aren't perfect at the FQE, needless to say I believe the FQE has proven, over the last 40 years, it doesn't need the CFC to be one of the biggest and most dynamic Provincial chess group in Canada.

[Pierre Dénommée]

This is true, but a FIDE Constitutional amendment could change the rules. You should not be surprised that one FQE guy told me that he was making contacts with foreign Federations in order to get a mover and a seconder for such an amendment. I do not believe that such motion would pass, but everything is possible.

It is likely this guy was joking, but there is always a possibility that he was serious. We can only say that the FQE cannot become a member of FIDE until there is a Constitutional amendment. We cannot say that the FQE will never become a member of FIDE.


FIDE members are either:

1) UN member countries.
2) UN observers (e.g. Palestine).
3) "Grandfathered" members (e.g. England, Scotland, Hong Kong).

Thus Quebec (or any other Canadian province, US state, other semi-autonomous regions such as the Basque region, Catalan region, etc.) would not be eligible.

[Michael von Keitz]

Hi Michael

I have to respectfully disagree with some of the things you say. To me, it's not about "A" perfect/miracle solution, it's about trying to do what might be good for the CFC, trying to leave a long term positive impact. I respect the fact you might have a different perception, a different approach, a different point of view of what is needed at the CFC right now, but to be honest, maybe it's because I'm a francophone and didn't get all the subtlety in your post. Let's see...



As it takes constant work on the part of both parties to make a relationship functional, I certainly agree with you that there is no "perfect/miracle solution."



First, I don't believe the CFC role as FIDE "gatekeeper" is the only leverage we have. Of course it's an important one (I'll not go to the CFC constantly fighting FIDE over the last decade or so, hello "gatekeeper") but it's clear to me the CFC was much stronger when the FQE was part of it. Can you tell me why you believe the FQE is not part of the CFC anymore ? What are the reasons it's still not joining the CFC ? Have you talked to any of the FQE officials recently ?

What about if the FQE decides not to "reconcile" with the CFC ? How do you believe heavily taxing them would help the CFC in any way ? What is there to gain for the CFC ? Are you saying any province in Canada not properly affiliated to the CFC would be subject to the same "deal" ? What if a GM comes out of...let's say PEI (let's imagine, for a few seconds, Fred McKim becomes GM strength later this year), would you want to heavily tax him ?



A national federation that is truly national must be superior to one that represents a fraction of the whole, so I am certain the CFC was a much stronger organization prior to the FQE's departure and it would be comparably strong upon the FQE's possible return. I will admit that I have not yet taken the opportunity to engage the FQE's leadership in a dialogue, but I look forward to doing so going forward.



From my point of view, not only is it important to keep an healthy relationship with the FQE (and also with the Quebec players), but it's also important to realize pretty soon, they might not need the CFC anymore. I don't know if you've followed this recently but you might have noticed FIDE has been adding more and more "Affiliated International Organizations" (http://www.fide.com/fide/directory/member-federations.html?view=affiliated). They have 21 as we speak. And the FQE is part of at least one of them, the AIDEF (http://www.aidef.ffechecs.org/). Now tell me, what would prevent the FQE to organize a FIDE rated event through the AIDEF ?

Also, do you have any idea how much the FQE gives/pays to the CFC annually ? Care to compare those numbers to other provincial associations in the country ? Did you know for the last Olympiads the FQE gave 2000$ to the CFC just as a good will gesture ? How many other Provincial organization did that to your knowledge ?


Whether the FQE is officially affiliated with the CFC or not, its geographic location is still within our Zone, meaning that any FIDE-related activity occurring within that province should first be passing through the CFC.

I have not suggested that relations between the FQE and the CFC have been all bad, but our differences can hardly be said to have been resolved. After all, money can't buy happiness.



Much could be said to explain how beneficial it would be for the CFC to have the FQE as a friend. But there is a reality. Not only the FQE should be very important for the CFC, but the Quebec players as well. Now there is only a handful of players (outside of the Outaouais area, of course), coming from Quebec to any other CFC rated tournament in the country, so even if you manage to get the FQE on board, the work would still have to be completed. And if I'm elected President, that's what I'd like to work on.


If the FQE were on board, I don't necessarily see a need for their players to travel extensively. On the whole, being active locally is no less important.



Marc Poulin has brought sponsorship to the equation, that's for sure. I'm not sure how much you know M. Poulin though. As we speak, the FQE also has some problems, as his colleagues, FQE executive members keep resigning over and over again. I'd hate for the CFC to make the same mistake again and try to generalize the CFC vs FQE dealings with only a one person relationship. What about when he leaves ? You'll leave the FQE as well ? I agree with a lot of what you say here though. It's just that, from my point of view if the CFC is to establish an important membership drive, juniors are certainly in the equation, but the relationship with the FQE has to be at least as important.


I certainly don't believe the conversation ends with a single individual, but I do believe it starts with one. That person is the FQE President, the face of the organization, who, currently, happens to be Marc Poulin.