My challenge to the CFC Governors

[Jason Lohner]

I personally challenge all the governors on this board to go to a local tournament and talk to the people who use tournament memberships. Find out how many of them would be willing to 'upgrade' to a full membership or would they just stop playing in CFC rated tournaments. My belief from the people I have talked to is that there will be a drop in tournament participation.

Ask yourself is this what the CFC mandate is? I personally thought that the CFC was supposed to promote chess, not hinder participation.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

... and I think you are wrong. Have been involved with CFC chess ever since I came to Canada (1994), have been paying my membership every year (even if I played one official game in the past 10 years...) and have been raising new chess players to represent Canada year after year, etc.

How about my challenge to you: buy a 1 year membership! Give CFC a chance to exist and do things for ches lovers all over Canada! Can you do that much? If you are not satisfied after 1 year, come over at the chess club in Burnaby and I will personally reimburse you the money. Maybe seeing all those youngsters play more and complain less will change your opinion... :cool:

[Jason Lohner]

... and I think you are wrong. Have been involved with CFC chess ever since I came to Canada (1994), have been paying my membership every year (even if I played one official game in the past 10 years...) and have been raising new chess players to represent Canada year after year, etc.

How about my challenge to you: buy a 1 year membership! Give CFC a chance to exist and do things for ches lovers all over Canada! Can you do that much? If you are not satisfied after 1 year, come over at the chess club in Burnaby and I will personally reimburse you the money. Maybe seeing all those youngsters play more and complain less will change your opinion... :cool:

I have been a CFC member for the last three years. I initially decided to buy a membership because they had copies of Chess Canada that I flipped through and thought it was worth the money. If I hadn't have seen the magazine there I would have used the Tournament Membership. If there wasn't that option I would have never tried tournament chess.

Ive been there and done that. What I am asking Governors do is get some real data. Do what I have done and actually ask the people what if they would buy a membership or stop playing CFC chess. This data should have been gathered BEFORE the proposal to see what kind of affect this will have getting casual players playing rated chess. What I am asking is the governors to Get the facts firsthand. Bob Armstrong has not spoken to ONE person who uses the tournament members, I have. Now I am asking the Governors to do some due diligence.

I have not been satisfied with my membership and I play in as many tournaments as I can get to. Even though I live 5 hours from the lower mainland I have played in two events down on the coast since September. Quite honestly I am against sending money to an organization I feel is detrimental to chess in Canada. I would gladly give money to organizations that promote chess and not hinder it... If I don't renew I will still send my $12 to the BCCF because I enjoy the newsletter... and I have donated to the Langley + Vernon Chess clubs. They promote chess, the CFC does not. Perhaps the next time I come down to the lower mainland I will stop by and you can give me the CFC portion back. too bad there isn't a tournament down there until the Keres Open.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

... juniors cannot read your posts. Do you know there's an 8 year old representing this part of Canada in Vietnam as we speak? He would not be there in a World you are talking about.

Chess is more than just a magazine, or not too many chess magazines would have subscribers outside New in chess...

You speak about Langley and Vernon chess clubs. How about donating something for the juniors who are the future and here I go back to my first paragraph!

I have told you before: there is no adult tournament in the Lower Mainland (actually there was one on Oct 4th for your information) because adults act like adults; what's in it for them is all they care. Who wants to spend their free time to entertain such players? Not me!

[Jason Lohner]

... juniors cannot read your posts. Do you know there's an 8 year old representing this part of Canada in Vietnam as we speak? He would not be there in a World you are talking about.

Chess is more than just a magazine, or not too many chess magazines would have subscribers outside New in chess...

You speak about Langley and Vernon chess clubs. How about donating something for the juniors who are the future and here I go back to my first paragraph!

I have told you before: there is no adult tournament in the Lower Mainland (actually there was one on Oct 4th for your information) because adults act like adults; what's in it for them is all they care. Who wants to spend their free time to entertain such players? Not me!


In the 'world' I am talking about there would be more people in Canada playing rated chess. When Bob Armstrong says that losing 2/3 casual players is acceptable losses I have to disagree. You know full well that there are less and less people playing in tournament chess in BC. If the CFC would concentrate on these Casual players, then they could easily afford to send juniors to vietnam.

I brought up the magazine because it was what attracted me to joining the CFC in the first place. Before that all I did was play against Chessmaster. I would not just join an organization before I tried it out. Eliminate the tournament memberships and you will eliminate people wanting to try out rated chess.

What will happen when these juniors grow up to be adults? Parents pay for their memberships now, but how many of them will continue on? I have played many of these juniors in adult tournaments, and I am quite happy to see their progress. I would like to see them continue on playing chess even though a large majority of them will probably not continue playing rated chess when they become adults.

note when I stated that there was no events in BC I was not including 'active' chess or jr events. I was stating events that I can play in or have longer time controls.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

... What will happen when these juniors grow up to be adults? Parents pay for their memberships now, but how many of them will continue on? I have played many of these juniors in adult tournaments, and I am quite happy to see their progress. I would like to see them continue on playing chess even though a large majority of them will probably not continue playing rated chess when they become adults.

note when I stated that there was no events in BC I was not including 'active' chess or jr events. I was stating events that I can play in or have longer time controls.

I am glad you ask that question. When these juniors will become adults, they would know what it means to play in CFC. They would have already been part of our clubs and tournaments, would have seen our efforts and understood it. Personally I would gladly organize tournaments for any of my past, present and future students when they become adults. There is a message here between the lines you should think about!...

The Oct 4 tournament had a special mixed group for juniors and adults. Those games were played on the 4th and 5th; long enough I think... There were only 2 adults and the rest juniors. Quod erat demonstrandum :rolleyes:

[Jason Lohner]

I am glad you ask that question. When these juniors will become adults, they would know what it means to play in CFC. They would have already been part of our clubs and tournaments, would have seen our efforts and understood it. Personally I would gladly organize tournaments for any of my past, present and future students when they become adults. There is a message here between the lines you should think about!...

The Oct 4 tournament had a special mixed group for juniors and adults. Those games were played on the 4th and 5th; long enough I think... There were only 2 adults and the rest juniors. Quod erat demonstrandum :rolleyes:

At my local club there is a player who did quite well as a junior. He told me that when he started to go to university he quit playing chess. He also told me that a vast majority of juniors quit when 'real life' pressures happen and they don't have the time to study/train to remain competitive. Don't get me wrong, I am quite happy that BC has a strong junior program. but I would state that a large percentage of these players stop playing when they become adults. I know of one particular 'former junior' who is a Very strong player who has just entered University. He hasn't played in the last couple of local tournaments (according to the TD) because he doesn't want to lose rating points and he can't afford the CFC membership. I am sorry to see this player quit, but I understand the reality of his situation.

I believe that getting rid of the tournament membership will dissuade people from coming back to rated chess. All I am asking the Governors to do is go out and ask people how this will affect Rated Chess in Canada.

[Brian Murray]

CFC MEMBERSHIPS

I have been reading the arguments for and against Tournament Fees with great interest. At the start of the chess season the Kingston Chess Club had an interesting discussion about the CFC Governor’s attempting to remove this option as a way to participate in tournaments.

This year we have at the Kingston Chess Club 20 players participating in our opening tournament, eight hold CFC memberships and of those eight, two occasionally compete in tournaments outside the club.

When asked why players were not choosing to join the CFC the answers were as follows:

1. Forty-three dollars is too much money to pay for the right to be rated, especially for those who only compete within the Kingston Chess Club. Since the CFC has shut down the chess magazine and is closing down the chess store the present cost is seen as excessive. Although there is talk of an online magazine being produced, many of our members are seniors who do not make use of computers or the internet so an online magazine would be useless to them. For all practical purposes the only thing the CFC is offering its membership is a rating – at $43.00 for the privilege – so why not join the Quebec Federation? or the US Association? which are both cheaper and /or offer more for your dollar. There is even an American company which will process your games or tournaments and provide you with a rating….all for the sum of $15.00 US per year. So the club players are now thinking $43.00 CDN or $15.00 US and all I require is a rating………

2. A portion of the fees are going to the provincial chess association. What exactly does the Ontario Chess Association provide to the Kingston club with the fees given to them? What does the Ontario Association do with the money period?? Why does it even exist??

3. Deep concern with the leadership, or lack thereof, within the CFC. Will there even be a CFC next year? Or the year after that??

Our small chess club cannot be the only club in Canada considering these options, therefore if the CFC really wants to push membership subscription they should start thinking outside the box, be a little more inclusive rather then exclusive. An example of this would be drastically lowering the CFC Fees, somewhere between $15 and $20 dollars per year and keeping the $10.00 tournament fees so that players can have the “play as we go” option. The online magazine is a good idea for some but should be viewed as another option for CFC members and sold to the membership accordingly.

The Kingston Chess club will be increasing the number of rated club tournaments from 2 to 4 per year, with a … say $15 CFC Membership fee (all money going to the CFC) a club member can play in 4 rated tournaments or still have the option to pay $10.00 for each. After looking at the math a majority of club players would be joining the CFC. Twelve new or renewing members times $15.00 = $180.00 the CFC would have to utilize while also increasing its membership. Take another 100 clubs across Canada in a similar situation as Kingston and you get $18,000.00 in membership fees per year you don’t have now. As for those who would prefer to pay $10.00 for the privilege of playing in each tournament, no problem, that is a fluid cash flow going into the CFC coffers as well.

The CFC Governor’s need to rethink this policy, start listening to the rank and file, and develop a more inclusive attitude, especially when we need an influx of membership and money.

I personally have renewed my CFC membership for this year as a gesture of good faith, in the hope that something positive will be done to change the situation as it now stands. Next year….well we shall see.


Brian Murray
President
Kingston Chess Club

[Aris Marghetis]

Hi Brian, well written. In my opinion, many Governors already agree with us.

Best regards.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

... 1. Forty-three dollars is too much money to pay for the right to be rated, especially for those who only compete within the Kingston Chess Club. Since the CFC has shut down the chess magazine and is closing down the chess store the present cost is seen as excessive. Although there is talk of an online magazine being produced, many of our members are seniors who do not make use of computers or the internet so an online magazine would be useless to them. For all practical purposes the only thing the CFC is offering its membership is a rating – at $43.00 for the privilege – so why not join the Quebec Federation? or the US Association? which are both cheaper and /or offer more for your dollar. There is even an American company which will process your games or tournaments and provide you with a rating….all for the sum of $15.00 US per year. So the club players are now thinking $43.00 CDN or $15.00 US and all I require is a rating…
...
3. Deep concern with the leadership, or lack thereof, within the CFC. Will there even be a CFC next year? Or the year after that??...

I'll take a bite at this if you don't mind.

a) An online magazine can be printed and made available to seniors without computer access if you really want to help out;

b) To those who compete only within the local club: in what way the Quebec Federation, US Association or that American company services help?

c) What has the Kingston Club done to address the leadership of CFC? Watching from the sidelines is a national past time which possibly led to this situation to begin with...

Bottom line is there's always going to be someone who's going to offer something cheaper if this is what you are looking for. You want to play in tournaments down South, you have to pay a membership and it is not tournament membership!

[Brian Murray]

Reply to Mr Demian

Sir,

Below is a response to each of your points:

a. Any member who pays for a CFC membership should be entitled to receive the full benefits of the membership. It is the CFC’s responsibility to ensure this happens. If they cannot provide to all then in fairness only what can be provided to all should be included in the membership fees. Not everyone uses a computer or makes use of the internet. Therefore these services should be offered separately to those who can make use of them. At this time all the CFC can offer its membership is a chess rating recognized nation wide. The membership fees should reflect this and be lowered to around the $15.00 mark.

b. The various federations/associations and or companies will provide local club members a chess rating at a lower rate than being offered by the CFC at this time. This is all most club chess players are interested in having. Therefore, if a chess rating can be provided at a cheaper rate than offered by the CFC, the CFC must address the issue and adjust membership fees so that the majority of its members feel their interests are being taken seriously. Failure to do so will result in the grass roots membership seeking what it wants elsewhere.

c. The members of the Kingston Chess Club submit their membership fees each year with the hope the money will be used wisely. Not everyone has the time or desire to take on a leadership role within the CFC, I personally have the greatest respect for those individuals who do take on a leadership role and take on the challenge of trying to provide a service and promote chess to a greater audience. Individuals who accept the challenges of leadership must remain aware of what its membership expects and make their decisions accordingly. It appears to me many of the people working in leadership roles within the CFC in the past decided they knew best, ignored what the membership was telling them and did what they wanted. The result is what we have today. So what has the Kingston Chess Club done about the leadership in the CFC? We have provided CFC leadership with constructive criticism of the planned changes to the membership / tournament fees and we have also provided a reasonable alternative solution that can easily be adopted. As I stated earlier, I believe most small clubs are thinking along the same lines as the Kingston Chess Club, so all the CFC leadership needs to do is pay heed to what the membership wants, pick up the ball and run with it! What then happens, you have a very satisfied membership and the CFC leadership look like geniuses.

As for tournament fees down south, if the CFC takes the lead and demonstrates what an inclusive atmosphere can produce at a tournament level and keep using the tournament membership fees, perhaps the chess leadership in the US will take note and make changes as well.


Sincerely,

Brian Murray
President
Kingston Chess Club

[Peter McKillop]

... Individuals who accept the challenges of leadership must remain aware of what its membership expects and make their decisions accordingly. It appears to me many of the people working in leadership roles within the CFC in the past decided they knew best, ignored what the membership was telling them and did what they wanted. The result is what we have today. ...

These lines remind me: didn't David Lavin say at some point that he was going to survey members to find out what was important to them?

[Valer Eugen Demian]

... for your response! We can have different views, but be able to interact in a polite manner. I raise my hat to you Sir!

It all boils down to what CFC membership means and what it offers. This is my point of view ever since the AGM from Montreal 2008. Until we clearly clarify it, people like me would say one thing and others will have different views.

A couple of points about your response:
a) Yes, that is correct! However when your finances are hurt, you adjust your spending to pass the tough period. Showing little understanding for what is going on could be seen as selfish since a club member could always print a magazine at home for those who don't have a computer. I will not comment about the membership being lowered since this is addressed by the paragraph above.

b) Again, probably we are not listening to each other. Quebec rating, or USCF rating or a private rating could not be put in the balance with a CFC rating for the average Canadian. Personally I doubt the majority of Canadians just want a rating - any rating - to fulfil their chess aspirations. If this would be the case, there are several opportunities to obtain free ratings; why pay for those listed?

c) Fair enough. However the members at large also have the opportunity to understand the ups and downs of the organization and help a little like suggested at point "a" above. Also not everything the membership seeks is the best; tournament membership is been in action for years and quite a few like myself believe it is one cause of the financial situation CFC finds itself in now.

The USCF example was meant to be familiar to both of us, but could be extrapolated to quite a few other national federations around the World. If I want to design good clocks I look at what the Swiss are doing, or if I want a good soccer team I look at the South Americans; maybe we should look at what successful chess federations are doing if it is to stand a chance to reverse the trend!

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss this!