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View Full Version : 21. 2011 Provincial YCC Qualifiers to the 2011 CYCC



Lyle Craver
01-15-2011, 01:50 AM
Please post your report here

Michael Barron
01-15-2011, 03:51 PM
Dear Governors,

As you know, this year we use new qualification system for CYCC.
Every Provincial Affiliate has the right and responsibility to develop YCC qualification system in its province according to local conditions.

We have very positive YCC start.
In November YCC Qualifiers took place in Quebec and Northern Ontario, there will be YCC Qualifiers in BC, Alberta, several in Ontario, Fred McKim mentioned that he considered doing something in the Maritimes.

But to make this project truly nation-wide, we need help from every Provincial Affiliate, from every CFC Governor.
Specifically, I didn't get any response yet from Manitoba and Saskatchewan.
Anyone know someone in Manitoba and Saskatchewan, who could organize youth chess championship?

Regarding CYCC qualification I have contacted the following people in each Province:
ONTARIO - Patrick McDonald,
NORTHERN ONTARIO - John Rutherford,
QUEBEC - Marc Poulin,
BRITISH COLUMBIA - Ken Jensen,
ALBERTA - Simon Ong,
SASKATCHEWAN - Donald MacKinnon,
MANITOBA - Ken Einarsson,
NEW BRUNSWICK - Ghislaine Johnson,
PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND - Jan Giles,
NOVA SCOTIA - Stirling Dorrance,
NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR - Chris Dawson.

The current situation in each of these provinces:

ONTARIO:
- Toronto Regional YCC : February,
- Windsor Regional YCC : February,
- West Toronto Qualifier : January - April,
- PMCA Qualifier : January - July,
- North Toronto Qualifier : March,
- Ontario YCC : May.

NORTHERN ONTARIO:
- Northern Ontario YCC : November, 77 qualified,
- Ontario francophone's YCC : April.

QUEBEC:
- Quebec YCC : November, 36 qualified,
- Quebec Junior Championship : February.

BRITISH COLUMBIA:
- Victoria Regional YCC : March,
- BC YCC : April.

ALBERTA:
- Alberta YCC : February.

SASKATCHEWAN:
- no response.

MANITOBA:
- no response.

NEW BRUNSWICK:
PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND:
NOVA SCOTIA:
NEWFOUNDLAND & LABRADOR:
- Fred McKim mentioned that he considered doing something in the Maritimes. One of possibilities is combined qualifier for all 4 provinces.


Please help in organizing CYCC qualifiers in every province and encouraging children to play chess!
They are the future of our Federation!

Alick Tsui
01-16-2011, 07:00 PM
For Newfoundland, we do not have enough active Juniors to justify hosting a qualifier. Only a handful of advanced Chess'n Math players play in our regular CFC events. Any of these players who chose to participate at CYCC could attend at their own initiatives.

Michael Barron
01-16-2011, 09:42 PM
Thank you, Alick, for information!

But why can't you organize Provincial Youth Chess Championship - just like you organize Provincial Chess Challenge every year?
How many Juniors do you need to justify hosting a qualifier?
Where could we get them, if there are no youth events in Newfoundland?

Bob Gillanders
01-16-2011, 10:05 PM
Alick,

It would be great if you could hold a Provincial qualifier, but if not, there still are several avenues for young Newfoundlanders to qualify. You should be familiar with the rules in motion 2011-C.

Michael - perhaps the motion should be further amended to allow some to qualify at the discretion of the provincial youth coordinator in cases where no provincial qualifier is held. :)

Michael Barron
01-16-2011, 10:16 PM
Yes, Bob, such provision exists:

"(c) The highest rating of each age category {open & female} of each Province {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}".

Of course, we could abandon rating, and leave the decision for the discretion of the provincial youth coordinator, but the idea is to encourage them to organize a youth tournament - at least one per year in the province!

Is it absolutely impossible? :confused:

Bob Gillanders
01-16-2011, 10:37 PM
I think it is possible for us in Ontario to sometimes not fully appreciate the difficulties encountered by those chess organizers in smaller provinces. They are plagued with few players spread over a vast geography. I am concerned there maybe a youngster in a remote area who is maybe ranked 2nd for his age. :(

I will propose an amendment to the motion. :)

Michael Barron
01-17-2011, 11:36 PM
I am concerned there maybe a youngster in a remote area who is maybe ranked 2nd for his age. :(


Bob,

Please show me such youngster... :)

I am concerned that we're wasting too much time trying to solve imaginary problems, while the real ones remain unresoled... :(

Bob Gillanders
01-17-2011, 11:40 PM
I am concerned that we're wasting too much time trying to solve imaginary problems, while the real ones remain unresolved... :(

You are so correct, my friend. :D

Egidijus Zeromskis
01-18-2011, 09:55 AM
But why can't you organize Provincial Youth Chess Championship - just like you organize Provincial Chess Challenge every year?

Could the CFC and C&M make a deal to recognize PCCs as qualifiers?

Bob Armstrong
01-18-2011, 09:59 AM
Hi Egis:

Victor Itkine, a member of the Youth Committee, has made this very proposal to the Committee. Michael can update us on how that proposal fared in discussion in the Committee ( their discussion board is confidential ).

Bob

Valer Eugen Demian
01-18-2011, 01:56 PM
Could the CFC and C&M make a deal to recognize PCCs as qualifiers?

I do not think you can do that since both organizations run their tournaments under different playing rules!

Egidijus Zeromskis
01-18-2011, 03:13 PM
I do not think you can do that since both organizations run their tournaments under different playing rules!

It is still better than no tournaments.

Michael Barron
01-19-2011, 01:07 AM
It is still better than no tournaments.

Egis,

What exactly is better?

The intent of the qualification system is - to encourage all provincial affiliates to organize youth CFC rated tournaments in their provinces.

CMA already has Provincial championships in all provinces.
Why can't CFC ? :confused:

Egidijus Zeromskis
01-19-2011, 09:39 AM
Why can't CFC ? :confused:

I can only speculate: the CFC has no infrastructure or ground in many provinces. How many are chess teachers and/or coaches affiliated with the CFC? Some kind of analogy of a relationship with FQE -- why is a number of CFC rated tournaments in the Quebec province low? :rolleyes:

Ken Craft
01-19-2011, 09:43 AM
This model has the smell of imposition from Upper Canada on it as well.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-19-2011, 07:04 PM
I can only speculate: the CFC has no infrastructure or ground in many provinces. How many are chess teachers and/or coaches affiliated with the CFC? Some kind of analogy of a relationship with FQE -- why is a number of CFC rated tournaments in the Quebec province low? :rolleyes:

Most of the teachers and coaches organize both cycles at the provincial level since they understand the value of each one. The difference is the amount of help they receive from CMA compared with CFC!

Fred McKim
01-19-2011, 07:35 PM
Most of the teachers and coaches organize both cycles at the provincial level since they understand the value of each one. The difference is the amount of help they receive from CMA compared with CFC!

That is an interesting position. Those from Ontario and Quebec might think differently, if they lived elsewhere.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-20-2011, 03:25 PM
That is an interesting position. Those from Ontario and Quebec might think differently, if they lived elsewhere.

This is not a position, but reality in BC. This seems to be the main problem now: the majority of governors come up with all sort of ideas valid for ON, while the rest of the country gets nowhere trying to be heard...

Personally I have been involved in organizing both cycles several times. I do that for the benefits of players because I believe the CMA cycle takes the young blood from CFC right where it matters the most. Accepting CMA to deal with junior chess in this country has been one of the worst legacy decisions we have to live with!... :mad:

Fred McKim
01-20-2011, 03:40 PM
I think my position was that outside of Ontario and Quebec, I'm not sure if the other provinces receive considerable support from CMA (perhaps moral support).

In PEI we have a group of committed volunteers that only operate on the CMA side of the fence, and I suspect that is the same elsewhere.

Was this the fault of the CFC ? I don't know if it reallt matters. We could use our eneregy a lot better to try and get these kids playing CFC tournaments.

I find active tournaments (games are a maximum of one hour) are a good equalizer for mixing adults and kids.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-20-2011, 05:43 PM
I think my position was that outside of Ontario and Quebec, I'm not sure if the other provinces receive considerable support from CMA (perhaps moral support).

In PEI we have a group of committed volunteers that only operate on the CMA side of the fence, and I suspect that is the same elsewhere.

Was this the fault of the CFC ? I don't know if it reallt matters. We could use our eneregy a lot better to try and get these kids playing CFC tournaments.

I find active tournaments (games are a maximum of one hour) are a good equalizer for mixing adults and kids.

Fred,

When myself - one and the same person - and the other BC volunteers manage to have over 200 players playing in regional qualifications and provincial finals for the CMA cycle, BUT cannot convince more than maybe 60-70 players to play directly at YCC (forget regionals where there would be no interest...) how can you tell me to spend my energy bringing the missing ones to CFC tournaments? Maybe you have some magic solution we did not think about and then I am all ears... :cool:

It is plain and simple logic there's something else rotten when they come in numbers for the CMA tournaments, while the opposite happens for the CFC tournaments!

P.S. Nobody is really interested to get an active rating! All want a true CFC rating!

Stuart Brammall
01-20-2011, 06:04 PM
Fred,

When myself - one and the same person - and the other BC volunteers manage to have over 200 players playing in regional qualifications and provincial finals for the CMA cycle, BUT cannot convince more than maybe 60-70 players to play directly at YCC (forget regionals where there would be no interest...) how can you tell me to spend my energy bringing the missing ones to CFC tournaments? Maybe you have some magic solution we did not think about and then I am all ears... :cool:

It is plain and simple logic there's something else rotten when they come in numbers for the CMA tournaments, while the opposite happens for the CFC tournaments!

P.S. Nobody is really interested to get an active rating! All want a true CFC rating!

I think it is clear that the CFC and CMA cater to different markets. Kids in general don't have the patience to play long chess, and that is why CMA gives them short games.

There are, of course, many exceptions... these are the individuals that the CYCC, and the Canadian Junior is for. This is not the Chess Challenge, where only the top boards have clocks-- this is the big leagues. I think it has been clear all along that we have not, and likely will not appeal to the average eight year old... nor do I think we should try.

I don't see what is wrong with having one event per year where the best of the best youth play each other, without having to waste time pummelling 4 or 5 players rated below 1000 along the way.

I understand that B.C. has issues with kids being under-rated, but even in the fall Jason Cao was number 6 on the list for his age group...

Fred McKim
01-20-2011, 10:16 PM
We all have the same problem with CFC vs CMA. I had to stop holding CFC Youth events 10 years ago as I couldn't get enough players.

I held a few CMA events, but thank goodness there is a separate group doing that now.

I don't see that CMA has much to offer grades 7-12 other than the Nationals. Those are the players we neeed to try and bring on.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-21-2011, 02:46 PM
We all have the same problem with CFC vs CMA. I had to stop holding CFC Youth events 10 years ago as I couldn't get enough players.

I held a few CMA events, but thank goodness there is a separate group doing that now.

I don't see that CMA has much to offer grades 7-12 other than the Nationals. Those are the players we neeed to try and bring on.

HERE lays the whole issue! My argument is that we need to concentrate of players from K to 12 and not only 7-12 ;)

Ken Craft
01-21-2011, 02:52 PM
And my argument is we need to do it in cooperation with the CMA not in competition with them.

Fred McKim
01-21-2011, 03:32 PM
That is all well and good Ken, but Michael had no luck when he contacted the 4 Atlantic CMA Co-ordinators regarding holding a YCC.

At present there is no incentive for CMA to have any of their events CFC rated or to serve as qualifiers for any CFC events.

CMA's holding the North American Youth last year was a first step, but there is a long way to go, before the CMA grip is loosened on lower grades.

This brings us back to rating issues, as again we have young players active in 2 rating systems, causing deflation.

Most pre-teen kids I ever talk to can't grasp the concept of a chess organization other than one they play in (CMA). Same as ratings......

Here's an idea: All CMA players receive complimentary "Participating" CFC Memberships. Once a year CMA sends us their rating file: with name, membership number, community, province, grade, rating, and number of tournaments. We have a process that takes this and updates their CFC rating or gives them a CFC rating.

This would be a win-win idea. They don't lose their players and we get to increase our membership and have more accurate ratings especially for the younger kids.

Stuart Brammall
01-21-2011, 09:25 PM
Not to be negative, but I don't think it is possible for us to appeal to young kids with our current standards.
Kids are not going to play long chess in the way we think about it.
The reason chess and math is so successful is that they compromise on many aspects of the game to make it more appealing to kids... specifically they do not use clocks, and they also do not record moves (generally). They even sometimes adjudicate positions based on who has more material...
I think it be counter-productive to have games of that sort rated in the standard fashion.

This is not to say we should not be trying to reach out to younger kids, its just that the average CMA player is not CYCC material.

We would be better off giving lessons, and providing cheap tournaments (unrated or with some sort of junior specific rating) and only when the kids get to the appropriate level give them a standard rating. I should clarify that by standard level I mean that they use clocks and record games... not a specific skill level, though I imagine if a kid is capable of sitting at a board for an hour straight he's probably well on the way to 1000.

Fortunately, or Unfortunately, CMA already does all this.

Michael Barron
01-22-2011, 12:36 AM
Here's an idea: All CMA players receive complimentary "Participating" CFC Memberships. Once a year CMA sends us their rating file: with name, membership number, community, province, grade, rating, and number of tournaments. We have a process that takes this and updates their CFC rating or gives them a CFC rating.

This would be a win-win idea. They don't lose their players and we get to increase our membership and have more accurate ratings especially for the younger kids.

Thank you, Fred!

It's a great idea!

The devil is, as usual, in the details... :(

First, sending rating files doesn't create new chess competitions.
What we need is - CFC rated tournaments for juniors in every province.
They could be organized by the same people who organize CMA tournaments, but better, if it will be different people.
We have Provincial Affiliates and CFC Governors in every province, and should encourage them to organize chess tournaments.

Second, there is an issue of CMA and CFC ratings conversion.
As you know, the CMA uses CFC ratings to adjust CMA ratings from time to time.
Now, if we will use CMA ratings to adjust CFC ratings, we create cyclic dependency.

Third, CMA tournaments and CFC tournaments - are competitions of different levels.
CMA could teach to play chess every kid in a school.
But not every kid is interested to study chess seriously.
But every kid who is interested to study chess seriously, should be able to find a local chess club, where he could play in a serious CFC rated tournament - with recording moves, with clocks and long time control.
The goal of Provincial Affiliates and CFC Governors should be to create such opportunity for every kid and encourage kids to make this step to the next level in chess development.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-22-2011, 03:00 PM
...
We would be better off giving lessons, and providing cheap tournaments (unrated or with some sort of junior specific rating) and only when the kids get to the appropriate level give them a standard rating. I should clarify that by standard level I mean that they use clocks and record games... not a specific skill level, though I imagine if a kid is capable of sitting at a board for an hour straight he's probably well on the way to 1000.

Fortunately, or Unfortunately, CMA already does all this.

Maybe this discussion is finally going somewhere... Our chess club rates the tournaments CFC only. In the past previous partners such as Andrei Botez were inclined to rate his tournaments with CMA because it was far easier and faster to have them published.

Kids want to know their ratings. If we provide a system where all tournaments played across the country are rated no later than the following week, then we can stand a small chance!

The argument of CMA lowering the standards is valid only so much. You can easily rate with CFC tournaments for players without a rating or under 1000. Even if you give them the minimum 1 hour reflection time, they will still finish their games within the same time frame as under CMA. Their attention span is not very long...

For Ken Craft:

We are looking to cooperation with CMA from a weak position; that it is very unlikely to happen. There's work to be done to keep the balance equal and only then you could talk about cooperation. CMA will never give up on its own the grip they got for so many years on the grassroots of chess. Whoever gave them this opportunity, signed the decline of CFC to what it is today...

Ken Craft
01-24-2011, 08:19 AM
As long as people see the CMA as competition, meaningful co-operation will not take place.

Stuart Brammall
01-24-2011, 10:19 AM
As long as people see the CMA as competition, meaningful co-operation will not take place.

I don't think anyone here sees them as competition.

I also don't think that we (the cfc) have anything to off kids of that age group, right now.

What would be the ideal relationship between the CFC and CMA?

As I see it, right now they introduce kids to chess, and then send the ones who enjoy it on to us.

The idea that we would have the same number of kids playing in our events as they do in their's is unrealistic... for every player with the patience to sit for an hour and play a chess game there are a hundred who cannot (and not just at junior level).

Right now, at the resident club of our president there is substantial junior sub-club-- and yet they do not play CFC games. This is not a bad thing... most of the kids I am sure would be incapable of playing a real game. I am sure when they learn to use a clock and record moves, Bob will be there encouraging them to move up to the CFC level.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-24-2011, 02:46 PM
I don't think anyone here sees them as competition.

I also don't think that we (the cfc) have anything to off kids of that age group, right now.

What would be the ideal relationship between the CFC and CMA?

As I see it, right now they introduce kids to chess, and then send the ones who enjoy it on to us.

The idea that we would have the same number of kids playing in our events as they do in their's is unrealistic... for every player with the patience to sit for an hour and play a chess game there are a hundred who cannot (and not just at junior level).

Right now, at the resident club of our president there is substantial junior sub-club-- and yet they do not play CFC games. This is not a bad thing... most of the kids I am sure would be incapable of playing a real game. I am sure when they learn to use a clock and record moves, Bob will be there encouraging them to move up to the CFC level.

Sorry to completely disagree with you. CMA covers the grassroots, or the foundation of the pyramid. This should have never happened simply because it must be in the mandate of CFC to promote chess from beginning to whatever extend in a proper way.

It is possible at the time CFC did not have enough teachers, but they should have never farmed out the most important segment. Players begin to form there; if that beginning is done in a certain way, it is detrimental to CFC as we can see. It is not a case of playing fast; anyone can play fast and still be CFC rated. The problem is people like you do not see this control CMA has as a problem!

In any European federation I am familiar with the national body takes very good care of their school (grassroots) chess activity, sponsoring it in several ways. Here CMA takes care of that and regardless if CFC sees this as competition or not, CMA does it for sure and will not give up by their own will...

Ken Craft
01-24-2011, 04:14 PM
The way I read the CFC's founding documents indicate it is the federation's job to support and encourage the CMA.

Fred McKim
01-24-2011, 06:29 PM
The way I read the CFC's founding documents indicate it is the federation's job to support and encourage the CMA.

Hmmm. At least give us the appropriate section, so we can read this ourselves.

In a perfect world, the CFC would have created a scholastic arm that would do all that the CMA does. The fact that we didn't have the infrastructure to build such an arm, will hurt us for a long time to come.

There are many CFC members, organizers and governors who support the CMA by running or helping run tournaments.

What we are missing out on is the CMA advertizing CFC YCC type of events.

Ken Craft
01-25-2011, 07:58 AM
Since you asked Fred, from the Letters patent:The objects of the Corporation are:

To promote and encourage generally in Canada, the knowledge, study and playing of the game of chess

Fred McKim
01-25-2011, 10:22 AM
Since you asked Fred, from the Letters patent:The objects of the Corporation are:

To promote and encourage generally in Canada, the knowledge, study and playing of the game of chess

That is a very broad statement, and I certainly don't take from it that supporting the CMA is our "job", not is it their job to support us. By the same token, they certainly don't have to be considered the enemy. Opportunities to work together at the organizational level have been few, but certainly the holding of the North American youth was a step in the right direction.

Right now there is an opportunity to try and encourage more players to stick with chess once they get to junior high and high school levels, where CMA doesn't have very much to offer, other than reaching the Nationals.

We have events appropriate for those age groups, but could use help with their advertizing.

Ken Craft
01-25-2011, 10:29 AM
The paradigm was chosen long ago when previous executives saw the CMA as the foe. The job of the CFC is to promote chess in Canada therefore it is the Federation's duty to support groups who are doing so. Maybe the CFC President should sit down and have a chat with the head of the CMA.

ETA: The nice part of all these amendments is that it has rendered the qualification process for the CYCC virtually meaningless.

Fred McKim
01-25-2011, 11:41 AM
The paradigm was chosen long ago when previous executives saw the CMA as the foe. The job of the CFC is to promote chess in Canada therefore it is the Federation's duty to support groups who are doing so. Maybe the CFC President should sit down and have a chat with the head of the CMA.

ETA: The nice part of all these amendments is that it has rendered the qualification process for the CYCC virtually meaningless.

I'm not sure what Bob's position on this is at the moment. Again, we'd have to first convince Larry that we have something to offer him to even make a meeting happen.

I think brainstorming by some of the Governors who "graze" on both sides of the fence is needed here.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-26-2011, 01:57 PM
The paradigm was chosen long ago when previous executives saw the CMA as the foe. The job of the CFC is to promote chess in Canada therefore it is the Federation's duty to support groups who are doing so. Maybe the CFC President should sit down and have a chat with the head of the CMA.

ETA: The nice part of all these amendments is that it has rendered the qualification process for the CYCC virtually meaningless.

This is such a wrong conclusion, I don't even know where to begin writing against it. Can't you see CMA is a competitor for the most important segment of the market: kids and juniors = the base of the chess pyramid?

CFC should understand this aspect, decide to trust those who agree and support their efforts to regain the market share! It is nonsense to ask me to support a group compared with I do a much better job! I should be crazy to do so. Give me and others like me the equivalent support and we'll talk again from a different position in a few years...

Ken Craft
01-26-2011, 03:00 PM
Valer can you see the difference between a national sporting federation and the CMA, a non-profit organization? Have you been around since the days when the CFC began to act antagonistically towards the CMA? Your talk about market share clearly represents a paradigm unbecoming a national sporting federation.

Stuart Brammall
01-26-2011, 10:24 PM
This is such a wrong conclusion, I don't even know where to begin writing against it. Can't you see CMA is a competitor for the most important segment of the market: kids and juniors = the base of the chess pyramid?

CFC should understand this aspect, decide to trust those who agree and support their efforts to regain the market share! It is nonsense to ask me to support a group compared with I do a much better job! I should be crazy to do so. Give me and others like me the equivalent support and we'll talk again from a different position in a few years...

How can they be a competitor? There is no market share here-- only promoting chess, which both the CFC and CMA do.
There is an obvious difference between promoting chess in Canada and promoting the CFC in Canada... we should make sure we're doing the right one.

Also you should know that the "thumbs down" icon you have used repeatedly in incredibly poor taste... if you were to gesture thumbs down repeatedly in person at an AGM, I would leave, if the chair did not throw out.

Fred McKim
01-26-2011, 11:28 PM
It's difficult to look at all of the different aspects of this situation with any degree of neutrality.

CMA just celebrated their 25th anniversary last year. I'm not sure how many of the current Governors were involved before then.

However, our organization has gone from 3 to 1 (effectively) employee and our revenue streams have dropped, I would say proportionately.

This is not all due to CMA, but I've been involved in 2 of the smallest provinces and vibrant junior and cadet programs we formerly had at the CFC level, have pretty well vanished. Junior membership is way down, but at the same time we have so many more youthful players in tournaments (CMA).

What I'd like to see is that CMA would encourage it's players from grade 7 and on playing in CFC events. Unfortunately, we've never had any bargaining chips in this game.

While CMA is a non-profit, to a lot of people it has the appearance of a business. Profit and loss statements aren't readily available, to the best of my knowledge.

I'm still looking for a win-win proposition that our two organizations can someday pull off.

Bob Armstrong
01-26-2011, 11:48 PM
Hi Fred:

I agree a win-win proposal is needed to break the current stalemate.

As you know, I quietly, as a governor only, approached Larry about the Atlantic provinces YCC's that were hoped for. You had given me the names of the key CMA organizers in each of the four provinces.

I put 2 possible scenarios to him to consider re possible negotiations:

1. the 4 Atlantic Provinces Affiliates could each enter into a contract with CMA to run their 2011 YCC's in each of the four provinces.
2. Larry could give his blessing to , and encourage, his CMA Altlantic organizers, to take on themselves ( not as CMA ) organizing the YCC's in each of their Atlantic home provinces, for the Provincial Affiliate and the CFC.

Larry's concern was that it could not just be a benefit to CFC - it had to be a win-win situation, where CMA got some benefit out of it.

I sent him what I thought were the benefits for each organization. Larry didn't thereafter respond ( I guess the CMA benefits were insufficient ), and I dropped it.

So there may be some willingness in CMA to cooperate, but it must benefit substantially both organizations.

As you say, we need to put our collective heads together to come up with a plan that serves the divergent interests of both organizations, and promotes youth chess in Canada.

Bob

Ken Craft
01-27-2011, 09:15 AM
Fred,
I would like to think that NB had good people promoting junior chess in the 70s and 80s. :) Local YMCA programmes and regular junior high school and high school tournaments provided a feeder system.

Bob: Had you spoken with provincial affiliates before making these suggestions to Larry?

Bob Armstrong
01-27-2011, 09:29 AM
Hi Ken:

My contact with Larry was personal only, since he and I do get along fairly well.

I was acting privately as an ordinary governor, and was only trying to develop possible negotiating scenarios. I was not speaking on behalf of the Provincial Affiliates, and I made it clear to Larry that this was the case, and if he wanted to go the CMA subcontract route, then we would have to contact the Provincial Affiliates to see if the idea flew with them at all.

My goal was to ascertain whether Larry was at all open to cooperating with CFC in any way re the Atlantic provinces' YCC's, where there seemed to be no activity re YCC's at that time. I was not negotiating anything on behalf of anyone - just trying to cooperatively brainstorm with Larry. It started out with some positive indications, but then dried up, so I abandoned it.

It was my intention, if Larry indicated anything positive and possible, that I would then approach Michael, and volunteer to assist re the Atlantic Provinces YCC's if he wished it.

Bob

Fred McKim
01-27-2011, 12:27 PM
Fred,
I would like to think that NB had good people promoting junior chess in the 70s and 80s. :) Local YMCA programmes and regular junior high school and high school tournaments provided a feeder system.

Bob: Had you spoken with provincial affiliates before making these suggestions to Larry?

Ken: Provincial affiliates in Atlantic Canada are effectively inactive and really aren't the ones running events for players under 18.

Dropping membership rates over the past years have lowered the number of people willing to take on this level of involvement.

Bob Armstrong
01-27-2011, 12:35 PM
The theory of the YCC Qualification system was, I think, that new juniors could be brought into the CFC system in the Atlantic provinces, with the YCC's, and so junior membership would finally start to rise there.

Bob

Ken Craft
01-27-2011, 01:30 PM
Bad theory, as I have said before.

Bob Armstrong
01-27-2011, 01:37 PM
Hi Ken:

Don't know that the theory is bad, but the system certainly is far from taking off at this point in the Atlantic Provinces. There may be other explanations for the non-functioning of the idea, other than that the theory is bad.

Bob

Fred McKim
01-27-2011, 03:59 PM
Bad theory, as I have said before.

I fully agree with Bob on this one. We must be in a position to introduce at least the better elementary players and all other juniors to regular tournament play.

Ken, I never thought your idea of cooperation meant having no CFC rated tournaments for juniors..........

Ken Craft
01-27-2011, 04:08 PM
Have I ever said that Fred? The paradigm is the problem. As long as the CFC views the CMA as an opponent rather than a potential ally, the CMA will be an opponent. As for the CYCC qualification process, it simply is not in sync with the reality on the ground in most provinces.

Fred McKim
01-27-2011, 04:55 PM
Have I ever said that Fred? The paradigm is the problem. As long as the CFC views the CMA as an opponent rather than a potential ally, the CMA will be an opponent. As for the CYCC qualification process, it simply is not in sync with the reality on the ground in most provinces.

Here's what I think. If I was in a position to organize CFC junior only events in PEI, I would target the existing juniors (who play in CMA tournaments).

Assuming I was going to try for a single event, I'd be inclined to call it the PEI Youth Championships. What I'd stress would be the opportunity to win a Provincial Championship. Qualification to the Nationals wouldn't be too important, as we don't have that calibre of player, and if we did they'd qualify through one of the other mechanisms.

If the board of the CMA affiliated PEI Youth Chess Association would have agreed to help it could have occured this spring after the CMA Nationals.

Having said all of this I still think of myself of being pro-CMA, but I have to remember which group I'm entrusted to make a #1 priority.

Valer Eugen Demian
01-27-2011, 06:21 PM
How can they be a competitor? There is no market share here-- only promoting chess, which both the CFC and CMA do.
There is an obvious difference between promoting chess in Canada and promoting the CFC in Canada... we should make sure we're doing the right one.

Also you should know that the "thumbs down" icon you have used repeatedly in incredibly poor taste... if you were to gesture thumbs down repeatedly in person at an AGM, I would leave, if the chair did not throw out.

Writing is always hard and one of the poor ways of communicating (basic HR concept). On top of this my experience so far as a governor is no matter what I say based on personal experience - we can debate how valuable it is - very few bother to even discuss it with me and even less to do something along it. It matters only what the majority back East says no matter what that is because they live and meet there... Now some might say this proves that I am absolutely out of touch; however my point is anyone dismissing it does it too fast, maybe because it is the easy thing to do and definitely because very few governors know about my work with kids and juniors since 1994.

NOBODY can tell me something different from my personal experience and force me to act differently. This includes the relationship with CMA at any level (national or provincial in BC). Also I know a thing or two about negociations and competition even between non-profit organizations. Maybe if I was an Ontario governor the others would listen more which is a bit sad if you really think about it.

The "thumbs down" icon is the only medium I see available to express my disappointment with the direction something progresses to. Example: we just received the voting results after the January meeting. Personally I feel we voted wrong in at least a couple of instances. Do you want me to be happy about it and go with the flow? Sorry, I am not that type of guy. I am not at all happy I will also be affected by it and would have to fix it after time (if only) will be lost...

Someday - hopefully sooner rather than later - CFC would realise who their true friends and promoters are before they disappear for various reasons. I am doing my "chess thing" here without any help from CMA or CFC, so I should at least be entitled to my position and be given a minute or two to express it. CFC - you guys included - benefits directly from the players coming out of BC and representing Canada!