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Bob Armstrong
10-08-2008, 11:42 AM
The following was posted by me on the " dark " board ( OCC ) on Oct. 7, in response to a post by " Kevin " making a number of points he felt pointed to Canadian chess dying ( and critical of the CFC ):

Hi Kevin:

Me thinks you are too gloomy.

Bob Gillanders( and team ) has breathed new life into the CFC office, and improved CFC member service, just in time to start recovering some good will from the membership.

The GL # 1 ( 2008-9 ) had 4 substantive restructuring motions passed that have been hanging fire for some time, and when carried out will go a long way toward correcting the CFC financial situation ( though I still expect some loss for fiscal 2008-9, ending April 30, 2009 ). 78.7% of 61 governors voted on these motions - unheard of participation in recent history.

Membership since May 2007 have risen 152 members - it looks like the drop has bottomed out, and when the Grassroots' Campaign gets rid of " tournament memberships ", the numbers of annual memberships will go up even more.

I can't speak for the Vancouver or Montreal scene. Toronto has been moribund. But it seems to be turning around. The Sept. Toronto Labour Day Open had over 140 players. There is going to be a Toronto Thanksgiving Day Open. A small Toronto RR is starting today ( likely 8-players ). The Toronto Seniors' Championship ( 8-player RR and perhaps a Reserve ) starts Oct. 14. In the GTA area - the Ontario Open/Ocktoberfest is in Kitchner in 2 weeks, and the Chessca Open in Elora in 3 weeks. Currently the Toronto Women's Championship is on ( 6-player RR ). The Toronto Junior Championship is coming up. And next Spring, Brian Fiedler has organized a big Toronto Open, on the style of a number of decades ago.

Right now, the Scarborough CC has almost 70 players out for the Howard Ridout Memorial Swiss - the most we've had since early in the Millenium.

There does seem to be a problem with national championships - no 2008 Canadian Closed/Zonal, nor 2008 Canadian Women's Championship. But on the international front, we will be sending two teams to the Dresden Olympiad ( and there has been modestly successful fundraising, given the CFC's current lack of finances ). Igor Zugic did participate in the 2007 FIDE World Cup for Canada.

Getting rid of the CFC's retail business is one of the smartest things it has done recently - it was losing CFC money - new competition didn't help ( nor did the CFC incompetent service a while back ). And the smaller CFC membership base made the Chess Canada print magazine too expensive for a small non-profit corporation - it had to go from a fiscal perspective. And CFC is going to replace it with an on-line Chess Canada, with a new respected editor, IM Lawrence Day.

I agree that David will improve CFC finances ( though I doubt he will balance the books for fiscal 2008-9 ), and this is especially positive after 4 consecutive years of substantial losses , the last being $ 33,000 ).

So I think your predictions of the death of Canadian chess are somewhat premature. I think Canadian Chess is rather rising from the ashes, and had a near-death experience.

Bob

Jason Lohner
10-10-2008, 05:30 PM
Chess is doing just fine in Canada. CFC rated chess is dying though. So what is your solution? Increase the barriers to new players! yeah thats going to work! If your proposal passes memberships will increase slightly and I am sure you will tout the numbers around saying 'See it worked!'. But guaranteed tournament participation will drop and the overall tournament participation and the CFC income will drop.

I would ask every governor here to go to any tournament and ask the people who use these tournament memberships if forced to would they buy a membership or just quit playing in CFC tournaments. In the last couple of tournaments I have played in (CFC and non-CFC rated) I have talked to people who actually use the tournament memberships. I have yet to talk to ONE person who said they would purchase a CFC membership. People will just play in non-cfc tournaments or just play in clubs and online.

If you want to reduce the amount of people playing rated chess in Canada then vote for these proposals.

Aris Marghetis
10-10-2008, 08:30 PM
As an active Organizer/TD (10 CFC and 3 CMA events for the 2008-2009 season), I have asked around enough, and I agree with Jason. In my humble opinion, eliminating the tournament membership option will hurt rated chess in Canada. I am particularly uncomfortable with the contention that it will somehow make more money for the CFC. Even if it does for the first few months or so, I respectfully submit that we are not going to get the buzz going about playing rated chess by implementing measures that will likely reduce the overall number of players who play rated chess. I have never met a player who didn't appreciate the excitement of playing opponents that he hasn't already played dozens of times. As CFC Governor, I am voting to keep tournament memberships (I could be influenced to re-consider their price).

Bob Armstrong
10-10-2008, 09:11 PM
Hi Aris:

I'm pleased that you have declared your position on this issue of TPF elimination. It would be good if more governors would enter into public debate with the membership on this issue, before they make up their minds.

I'd only note to you that both President David Lavin and Secretary Lyle Craver have both now publicly come out in favour of eliminating the tournament membership. Governors Barry Thorvardson and Gary Gladstone suppport the elimination ( mover/seconder of the Grassroots' Motion 2009-7 ). As well, I would note that CFC Treasurer, Chris Mallon, was an endorser of the original Grassroots' Campaign platform, which had in it the elimination of tournament memberships and was the seconder for the Grassroots' Campaign " straw vote " motion # 3 for eliminating them ( not sure from some recent comments of his if he still supports elimination ). Governor Kerry Liles was also an original endorser of the platform, and he has not to my knowledge withdrawn his support for eliminating tournament memberships. All this to say, it is a hotly contested issue.

Bob

Kerry Liles
10-10-2008, 09:17 PM
Governor Kerry Liles was also an original endorser of the platform, and he has not to my knowledge withdrawn his support for eliminating tournament memberships. All this to say, it is a hotly contested issue.Bob

I have not made up my mind quite yet, but Aris (and others) make a strong argument in favour of keeping (some sort of) tournament membership. I have always liked the original intent of the tournament membership - as I understood it - as an "try before you buy". However, with the current lack of either a magazine or a website with a lot of valuable content, I think I would tend to agree with Aris' post above.

The whole issue of membership benefits, fees, rating fees, FIDE fees, and side issues like tournament memberships cannot really be considered separately from each other. I would like to see a more comprehensive proposal to address all those items at once (with a lot of backup reasoning). In the meantime, I think I have to tend toward the status quo - as annoying as it is on so many levels.

I have not yet voted on the matters in GL#2 and I realize tempest fugit.

Bob Armstrong
10-10-2008, 09:25 PM
Hi Kerry:

I hope you continue to keep an open mind on this as the debate unfolds.

As to your " try before you buy " position, this is exactly what the Grassroots' Campaign Motion 2009-8 does ! It gives first time CFC'ers a whopping 40% discount on their first annual CFC membership. It is an inducement to try the CFC at a reasonable cost ( they still get all the benefits of full membership ). Hopefully they'll like what they see and renew.

This discount is meant to compensate for " first time CFC'ers " for the elimination of the tournament membership. It gives them a cheap first try.

Bob

Aris Marghetis
10-11-2008, 01:14 AM
Hi Kerry:

I hope you continue to keep an open mind on this as the debate unfolds.

As to your " try before you buy " position, this is exactly what the Grassroots' Campaign Motion 2009-8 does ! It gives first time CFC'ers a whopping 40% discount on their first annual CFC membership. It is an inducement to try the CFC at a reasonable cost ( they still get all the benefits of full membership ). Hopefully they'll like what they see and renew.

This discount is meant to compensate for " first time CFC'ers " for the elimination of the tournament membership. It gives them a cheap first try.

Bob
If I may add, I don't believe that all potential new CFC members try it out the same way. Some people would try a few events over a couple of years before joining as annual members. I believe that the flexibility of the tournament membership will pay more dividends than a single strict trial period. Also, there's the logistics. For example, how does an onsite TD figure out if someone has taken the 40% discount before? With annual and tournament memberships, it's simple: either the player points to his current annual membership, or he pays either the annual fee or the temporary fee. I'm sorry, but to me, the choice is clear, keep the tournament membership. However, I could re-consider raising the tournament membership price.

Bob Armstrong
10-11-2008, 09:29 AM
Hi Aris:

Here is the motion for the first-time CFC'er discount:

Motion 2009-08 ( referred to as Motion # 2 )– Moved: Barry Thorvardson; Seconded: Gary Gladstone –
CFC Annual Membership Discount – The Incoming Governors’ 2008 AGM Motion on CFC fees is amended by adding after the third sentence: “ Effective January 1, 2009, to encourage individuals to become CFC members, first time CFC members shall be given a 40% fee reduction for their first year. “

In terms of the practical logistics of applying this motion, it is our intention that all players who have already used a " tournament playing fee " will be deemed to be have been CFC members for the purpose of the discount. After all, they have had access to the system, have tried out competitive CFC-rated tournament chess, and have obtained a CFC membership No. and a national rating. They do not need the first time discount encouragement - they have had the experience and can evaluate it.

So for the purpose of the tournament director, if a player is in the rating system, then they do not qualify for the discount. Only true " first timers " who have never played a CFC-rated tournament will be eligible for the discount. Simple to administer, just like the TPF.:)

Bob

Jason Lohner
10-11-2008, 07:54 PM
***First Scenario***

former TM : " Hi my name is John smith... (shows ID)."
TD : "Hmmm there is a John smith already in hicktown with a CFC rating"
Former TM : "Thats not me I would like my 40% discount please"
TD : "Hmm now what do I do"

Repeat process every year...

***Second Scenario***

Annual hicksville club tournament

First time player : " I would like to register, this is my first tournament"
TD: "you have to join the CFC first, there is a 40% discount for first time buyers"

Second Annual hicksville club tournament

former first time player (second time player) : " I would like to register for the
tournament"
TD : "your CFC membership has now expired and you need to renew, that will be an extra $48 dollars (in BC)"
player : "48 dollars !!@#!@@% for one tournament a year???? !@#!@# thanks but no thanks"

and watch the tournament participation plummet...

Valer Eugen Demian
10-11-2008, 11:57 PM
... is similar with shopping at the Salvation Army and asking why there's no high class service (no disrespect intended to the Salvation Army).

Let's see: some chess people do not even want to hear about chess being recognized as a sport here (even if it is in about 75% of countries in the World), do not want to pay a yearly membership to a national organization, ask time and time again what is provided to them when in return they do not consider they have to do anything, etc, etc.
Conclusion: let's kick CFC over and over again (easy target, right?) until they will disappear in the oblivion. I am sure then everyone will satisfy their chess craving playing in those "great" internet chess sites, while watching the World outside play chess as it should be played!

How about that?

Jason Lohner
10-12-2008, 12:25 AM
... is similar with shopping at the Salvation Army and asking why there's no high class service (no disrespect intended to the Salvation Army).

Let's see: some chess people do not even want to hear about chess being recognized as a sport here (even if it is in about 75% of countries in the World), do not want to pay a yearly membership to a national organization, ask time and time again what is provided to them when in return they do not consider they have to do anything, etc, etc.
Conclusion: let's kick CFC over and over again (easy target, right?) until they will disappear in the oblivion. I am sure then everyone will satisfy their chess craving playing in those "great" internet chess sites, while watching the World outside play chess as it should be played!

How about that?

- Chess is not a sport, it is a game... sports involve physical activities.

- I have been a CFC member since I started playing the game

- I am concerned that what the CFC is doing will reduce the amount of people who play rated chess in Canada, you can call that complaining all you want, what I am doing is asking the governors to see what affect this proposal will have.

- the VAST majority of chess players in Canada play solely on internet sites, to ignore this is to put your head in the sand and pretend that this isn't how it is ...

- the CFC's PRIME function should be to promote chess in Canada, If they concentrated on getting MORE people to play chess then perhaps they wouldn't be in the financial problems they are in now. Until the CFC concentrates on the AVERAGE player and show them the benefits of supporting the CFC then they will continue to have revenue problems.
You can't get more people to play rated chess when you put barriers infront of them.

- I don't want the CFC to disappear, but if it continues to dissuade casual chess players from playing in tournaments then perhaps the CFC deserves to go under. Maybe it will be replaced with an organization that remembers what its job is to promote chess in Canada.

Valer Eugen Demian
10-12-2008, 12:34 AM
- Chess is not a sport, it is a game... sports involve physical activities.

- I have been a CFC member since I started playing the game

- I am concerned that what the CFC is doing will reduce the amount of people who play rated chess in Canada, you can call that complaining all you want, what I am doing is asking the governors to see what affect this proposal will have.

- the VAST majority of chess players in Canada play solely on internet sites, to ignore this is to put your head in the sand and pretend that this isn't how it is ...

- the CFC's PRIME function should be to promote chess in Canada, If they concentrated on getting MORE people to play chess then perhaps they wouldn't be in the financial problems they are in now. Until the CFC concentrates on the AVERAGE player and show them the benefits of supporting the CFC then they will continue to have revenue problems.
You can't get more people to play rated chess when you put barriers infront of them.

- I don't want the CFC to disappear, but if it continues to dissuade casual chess players from playing in tournaments then perhaps the CFC deserves to go under. Maybe it will be replaced with an organization that remembers what its job is to promote chess in Canada.

"Chess is not s sport..." Stereotypical "ostryich" type response. Not every sport needs a stick and to allow bodychecks and fights ("not that there is anything wrong with that" Jerry Seinfeld)...

Good for you for being a CFC member since that time!

There are plenty of juniors coming up you might not know about (reduce number of players?!...). Want to learn more for a better understanding and a more real evaluation of the Canadian chess scene?

There are vast majorities of players playing on the internet in a lot of other countries and they still have a national federation.

You keep on talking about the average player; come and see them! They might not be your age though... ;)

Jason Lohner
10-12-2008, 12:52 AM
"
There are plenty of juniors coming up you might not know about (reduce number of players?!...). Want to learn more for a better understanding and a more real evaluation of the Canadian chess scene?

There are vast majorities of players playing on the internet in a lot of other countries and they still have a national federation.

You keep on talking about the average player; come and see them! They might not be your age though... ;)

Definition : Average player == someone who plays chess on a casual basis

I have played many of the top juniors, I am well aware of how many strong juniors there are. What I am concerned about is your average adult club player. Why push these people away from rated chess?? I have spoken to many of these people and not ONE said that they though it was worth buying a membership for one tournament a year. Since I have started playing tournament chess in 2006 I have seen a steady decline in participation in adult chess tournaments. The first Keres open I played in (2007) one of the key notes that was brought up was the decline in participation at the BCCF annual meeting. To ignore this is to ignore reality. I am happy that BC has a strong junior component, and you should be proud that you have had a major affect on this, but what I am stating is how the adult chess scene will be effected under these proposals.

When comparing countries you need to compare countries on a simular economic and cultural basis. You can't compare eastern europe and Canada as Eastern Europe has a rich chess cultural that was state sponsered under communism. A better comparison would be the USCF. The USCF is having many of the same problems as Canada is. Most people in the US and Canada can easily afford a computer so many of them have taken thier love of the game to online servers. this is just a fact and the CFC needs to accept this.
The USCF is also close to bankrupcy.

Valer Eugen Demian
10-12-2008, 12:59 AM
... When comparing countries you need to compare countries on a simular economic and cultural basis. You can't compare eastern europe and Canada as Eastern Europe has a rich chess cultural that was state sponsered under communism. A better comparison would be the USCF. The USCF is having many of the same problems as Canada is. Most people in the US and Canada can easily afford a computer so many of them have taken thier love of the game to online servers. this is just a fact and the CFC needs to accept this.
The USCF is also close to bankrupcy.

Communism has died in December 1989 the year of the Romanian televised revolution. There's quite a few years since that time and chess is still strong in Eastern Europe. Why can't it be here as well? Canada is miles away as potential from any of those countries. Why compare with USCF? Our juniors deserve it and the average player like you would benefit it too! I will leave you with this thought.

Thanks for your conversation! The Canucks just won! :-)

Jason Lohner
10-12-2008, 12:19 PM
Communism has died in December 1989 the year of the Romanian televised revolution. There's quite a few years since that time and chess is still strong in Eastern Europe. Why can't it be here as well? Canada is miles away as potential from any of those countries. Why compare with USCF? Our juniors deserve it and the average player like you would benefit it too! I will leave you with this thought.

Thanks for your conversation! The Canucks just won! :-)

rated OTB chess is doing well because of 50+ years of state sponsorship. That sort of influence will not just disappear overnight. I am not saying that it can't be that way here, what I am saying is that the reality of how chess is being played in North America is FAR different than in Eastern Europe.

As I have stated before, there are far more Canadians playing on ONE CC server (www.chessworld.net) based in the UK than all of the CFC. Whenever I play someone on line from Canada I check to see if they are a CFC member, and I have yet to come across one opponent that is. I am currently playing someone from Montreal and I asked him if he played in the Canadian open. He had no idea that it was held in Montreal. These types of players are who I call 'average' or Casual chess players. These are the sort of people that the CFC should target. I have yet to check the many other servers, such as ICC, FICS, Redhotpawn etc... but I am sure that they have quite a large Canadian population as well. As I stated earlier, chess in Canada is doing just fine, it is the CFC that is dying.

If the CFC wants these types of players we must encourage them to try tournament play. Putting barriers in front of them is not going to attract these players to rated OTB chess. I want to Increase the number of players playing in OTB rated chess, not decrease it. Bob Armstrong has stated publicly that losing 2/3 of these casual players is acceptable losses. I do not agree and that is why I am so strongly opposed to this proposal. I want to Increase the number of chess players not decrease it ... and that is what will happen under this proposal. I believe that the CFC has lost its prime focus, which is to promote chess in Canada.

Valer Eugen Demian
10-14-2008, 02:48 PM
rated OTB chess is doing well because of 50+ years of state sponsorship. That sort of influence will not just disappear overnight. I am not saying that it can't be that way here, what I am saying is that the reality of how chess is being played in North America is FAR different than in Eastern Europe...

Well, I think you make assumptions instead of knowing facts. The old chess clubs were getting some state sponsorship, but nowhere near as much as you assume. Most of them were sponsored by big enterprises and the government allowed that even if it was not clear based on what.

Today quite a few of those old club plus many new ones are simply sponsored by big corporations such as GE, Labbat to give you just a couple of names for a better understanding. Long gone is the 50+ state sponsorship you think it still is in effect one way or another. The main difference is chess being regarded as it is: a sport! The business community holds it in high regard and supports it. I will let you guess the main reason why things are not the same here...

P.S. The other assumption you make is that we do not participate in internet chess and we do not know about those average players you talk about. We do, believe me! However it is very strange how a Canadian internet chess adict like your partner from Montreal knows how to find several chess sites on the internet, but not the ones announcing the Canadian Open. There is a point where "it takes 2 to tango", or in other words those average players should be open to listen to a pledge about CFC!

David Lavin
10-14-2008, 03:45 PM
The first step is getting people away from their on-line chess fix isn't a CFC rated tournament, its a club. After all, most of the on-line activity is around blitz. The leap from 5-minute on-line to 5-6 games over a weekend is huge. The leap from 5minute on-line to 5-minute OTB is small.

In the glory days of the Toronto Chess Club we'd have 50-60 people out every Saturday for the blitz tournament, sometimes even more. Only about 25% played in CFC rated tournaments. The same held true for the weekday tournaments as well.

Hugh Brodie
10-14-2008, 04:33 PM
Hi Jason -

Could you name your "Montreal player" - it may be someone I know. They might have recognized it as the "Quebec Open" (which it was - partly).

(if you prefer not to name them in public, you could send me email at hugh dot brodie at mcgill dot ca).

Jason Lohner
10-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Hi Jason -

Could you name your "Montreal player" - it may be someone I know. They might have recognized it as the "Quebec Open" (which it was - partly).

(if you prefer not to name them in public, you could send me email at hugh dot brodie at mcgill dot ca).

sent you a message via this boards private messages.

Jason Lohner
10-14-2008, 08:49 PM
The first step is getting people away from their on-line chess fix isn't a CFC rated tournament, its a club. After all, most of the on-line activity is around blitz. The leap from 5-minute on-line to 5-6 games over a weekend is huge. The leap from 5minute on-line to 5-minute OTB is small.

In the glory days of the Toronto Chess Club we'd have 50-60 people out every Saturday for the blitz tournament, sometimes even more. Only about 25% played in CFC rated tournaments. The same held true for the weekday tournaments as well.

The server I play on is a Corr. Chess server. I tend to avoid blitz games as I feel they are detrimental to my 'chess growth'. CC is far closer to 'real' (OTB) chess than blitz :). It would probably be a boon to the CFC is they rated blitz tournaments (as well as the active tournaments).

Personally in my own case I only played a couple months on ICC and generally played against ChessMaster 10 (for about 1 year) before I tried tournament chess. I pretty much knew that I was going to lose most of my games but wanted to know how much I had learned in one year. From my result I didn't learn very much! I didn't discover a chess club in my town until 6 months after my first tournament (Langley Labourday open 2006). As I had stated earlier, the only reason I joined the CFC is because I liked the magazine. I was planning to use the 'tournament membership' to try OTB rated chess. If there wasn't that option, I would have never tried rated chess.

Bob Armstrong
10-15-2008, 10:31 AM
I think David's point is important. Clubs encouraging casual play is a start to attracting people to CFC-rated tournaments ( and is promoting chess generally as a " social " activity ).

Scarborough CC has no casual chess, unfortunately. But we have problems re this. We have no space. Our CFC-rated Thursday night tournaments take up all available tables now. And we are only open the one evening a week.

Also, there is a difficulty getting casual play going at a tournament club. Casual players are hesitant to come out for fear there will be no other players there for casual chess, or at least only a couple of players.

But the day may be coming when SCC will have to move to larger premises, if we keep growing the way we are. Then it will be good to make casual chess a new priority.

Bob

Valer Eugen Demian
10-15-2008, 03:02 PM
An important reason why it is so hard to keep an adult chess club going is closely related to the finances involved. If the same space I am renting for 4 years now would be designated for adult chess, my rental rates would be 3 times higher!

Juniors are more likely to commit to a chess program (good for cash flow), while adults come whenever they feel like it. Nobody can survive like that unless it can find other sources of funds! However chess is not a sport, so here we go again back in the same loop identical with this one:
"A new immigrant cannot get a job because it has no Canadian experience, but cannot get any Canadian experience without a job"
Who loses in both cases? Us all... :eek: