14. CYCC Tie-breaks Motion (Ken Jensen) Motion 2012-B

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

It is recommended that playoffs only be arranged to determine the official Canadian representative to the WYCC.

The direct encounter (play-off) should be set for all first three places.
See:

1012.Participation in the World Events:
...
Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:
1) World Youth Chess Championship (WYCC);
2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;
3) North American Youth Chess Championship.

Thus I move a motion to append the quoted sentence as:

The playoffs are arranged to determine the official Canadian representatives for the World Events.


This would be a change from the current status as it required play-offs only to determine a winner. ("to determine an outright winner")

[Ken Jensen]

The direct encounter (play-off) should be set for all first three places.
See:
Thus I move a motion to append the quoted sentence as:
The playoffs are arranged to determine the official Canadian representatives for the World Events.
This would be a change from the current status as it required play-offs only to determine a winner. ("to determine an outright winner")

The purpose of this amendment is to open the door for computer tie breaks and to help organizers stay on schedule. Proposing play offs for all WYCC qualifying positions is exactly the opposite, and the reason for the recommmendation to limit it to top spot. Play offs have Never been applied for third place, but have been for second in cases where the number one is clearly not going. The practise has been that all players tied for the second or third places qualify to WYCC. Breaking those ties eliminates a lot of qualified players and is not in their best interests.

Furthermore the ties can involve many players. I have seen 8 or 9 rounds required for a full set of play-offs. This would literally require additional days to complete at CYCC. The playoff could have more games than the tournament itself.

While I appreciate the intention if your motion I would be inclined to vote against the initial motion if the change was included.

Ken Jensen

[Valer Eugen Demian]

The purpose of this amendment is to open the door for computer tie breaks and to help organizers stay on schedule. Proposing play offs for all WYCC qualifying positions is exactly the opposite, and the reason for the recommmendation to limit it to top spot. Play offs have Never been applied for third place, but have been for second in cases where the number one is clearly not going. The practise has been that all players tied for the second or third places qualify to WYCC. Breaking those ties eliminates a lot of qualified players and is not in their best interests.

Furthermore the ties can involve many players. I have seen 8 or 9 rounds required for a full set of play-offs. This would literally require additional days to complete at CYCC. The playoff could have more games than the tournament itself.

While I appreciate the intention if your motion I would be inclined to vote against the initial motion if the change was included.

Ken Jensen

Actually play-offs for 2nd and 3rd places were held in the past, if only to remember CYCC 2005 in Victoria. The purpose of those play-offs were to determine who got the respective trophies. I know it well since one of my students played in one for 3rd place! Now even if he had already qualified for WYCC, he was still much affected when he lost the play-off game... It was played right after the last round, late at night, tired, etc. Given the situation it should have not been any play-offs; a computer tie-break system could have saved all involved of such solution...

[Michael Barron]

Actually play-offs for 2nd and 3rd places were held in the past, if only to remember CYCC 2005 in Victoria. The purpose of those play-offs were to determine who got the respective trophies. I know it well since one of my students played in one for 3rd place! Now even if he had already qualified for WYCC, he was still much affected when he lost the play-off game... It was played right after the last round, late at night, tired, etc. Given the situation it should have not been any play-offs; a computer tie-break system could have saved all involved of such solution...

I second Valer's opinion - play-offs are not needed.
7 rounds provides sufficient data to determine who played better in the event.
Just look at the international competitions - anybody knows anything about play-offs after WYCC?

[Patrick McDonald]

The direct encounter (play-off) should be set for all first three places.
See:

Thus I move a motion to append the quoted sentence as:

The playoffs are arranged to determine the official Canadian representatives for the World Events.


This would be a change from the current status as it required play-offs only to determine a winner. ("to determine an outright winner")

The Official Canadian Representative to World Events is only the First place finisher, otherwise anyone even tied for any of the top 3 spots is invited to participate on the team - at their own expense.

[Patrick McDonald]

I might also take issue with the proposed order of priority for statistical tiebreaks.

[Fred McKim]

I might also take issue with the proposed order of priority for statistical tiebreaks.

Unless I'm reading the motion wrong, the order presented is simply a pick-list of choices available. Presumbably the organizers would build a list of tie-break procedures prior to the event. Variations could be allowed depending on the number of players tied for a position, etc.

[Ken Craft]

I had the same thoughts as Patrick. At best, the motion is inadequately worded.

[Ken Jensen]

I might also take issue with the proposed order of priority for statistical tiebreaks.

The order of tie breaks is a recommendation, not a prescription. Under this wording you could choose the solution that best fits your situation.

The wording for play offs to determine the official Canadian representative to WYCC also gives you the leaway to hold playoffs for second spot if you believe the top spot winner will not follow through an go to WYCC.

This proposal gives you the tools to do the job you have always been doing.

Frankly I'm surprised that the order of recommended Tie Breaks did not raise more conversation earlier. It is always a hot topic of discussion amoung event organizers and TD's. This happens to be the official fide recommended order.

Ken Jensen

[Patrick McDonald]

The order of tie breaks is a recommendation, not a prescription. Under this wording you could choose the solution that best fits your situation.

The wording for play offs to determine the official Canadian representative to WYCC also gives you the leaway to hold playoffs for second spot if you believe the top spot winner will not follow through an go to WYCC.

Ken Jensen

The list does not even contain the tiebreak that I believe is the most fair - performance of opposition - I definintely disagree with some of those tiebreak systems and believe they should not only not be recommended, but be recommended against.