Poll : Change the Can. Junior Prize Plicy?

[Bob Armstrong]

I have proposed that the policy on the Canadian Junior Prize be changed.

The Current Policy: the winner gets to use the prize $$ for any other major international tournament of his/her choice, if not going to the World Junior.

My Proposed Policy:the prize has to be used to go to that year's World Junior. If the Champion is not going, then the prize defaults over to the second place finisher, etc.. If no one goes one year, the money does NOT go into CFC general revenue ! It is kept in the Canadian Junior account, and is added to the prize fund in the next year's Can. Junior.

Ratiionale for the Change: the current policy has lost the point of the Canadian Junior. It seems that the current policy appears favoured by participants, since it gives them surety that they can keep the prize if they win, and they don't have to commit to going to the World Junior to go into the Canadian Junior. So what has happened is that the Canadian Junior has just become a tournament like all other tournaments, where you can play for a significant prize, regardless of whether you have any interest at all in the World Junior. My concern is that yes, the Can. Junior will attract players, but more and more of them will be playing with no intention of going to the World Junior. For most of them, it will just be another strong tournament where they have a chance at a good prize. So less and less often will Canada have a participant in the World Junior! More and more of the winners will be of the type who are not going to go to the World Junior.

Request: Please vote in the poll, to give me an idea whether I should pursue getting a change in the policy.

Bob

[Bob Gillanders]

Yes. Go for it Bob.

[roger patterson]

The point of the Canadian Junior is not to choose someone to go to the World Junior although that is certainly a good thing. The point of the Canadian Junior is to select a Canadian Junior Champion.

You may have other difficulties. As far as I know, the prize money in the last tournament was collected by the organizer as entry fees and some subsidies - i.e. was untouched by CFC hands. So, it might not be the CFC's decision to make.

For most of them, it will just be another strong tournament where they have a chance at a good prize.

I think if you talk to the higher rated junior players (and I've talked to one on the subject) - they would disagree with this statement. The person I talked to felt the tournament was quite weak with many of the strongest juniors missing and certainly nothing like the strength it could be. Those of us who remember the Closed tournaments of old would probably agree.

If you are going to mess with the structure of the Junior, probably, it would be better to consider why the tournament doesn't attract all of the strongest players or at least good regional representation.

[Bob Armstrong]

The point of the Canadian Junior is to select a Canadian Junior Champion.

You may have other difficulties. As far as I know, the prize money in the last tournament was collected by the organizer as entry fees and some subsidies - i.e. was untouched by CFC hands. So, it might not be the CFC's decision to make.

I think if you talk to the higher rated junior players (and I've talked to one on the subject) - they would disagree with this statement. The person I talked to felt the tournament was quite weak with many of the strongest juniors missing and certainly nothing like the strength it could be. Those of us who remember the Closed tournaments of old would probably agree.

If you are going to mess with the structure of the Junior, probably, it would be better to consider why the tournament doesn't attract all of the strongest players or at least good regional representation.

Hi Roger:

You are quite right about the purpose of the Can. Junior. But it seems to me we will get the strongest Champion, regardless of the nature of the prize.

You are also right that the prize $$ are submitted to CFC out of the entry fees. The issue I guess, is which type of prize will attract the most entries, to guarantee prize $$. On this one it is not clear to me. Michael has said the juniors he surveyed said the current policy was favoured by them, and he got a good turnout in 2008. Was it a " good " turnout in 2009? Would it have been better if the prize policy was as I have proposed? I doubt it will be better, but I also doubt it would have been worse.


Finally, you make a critical point : " it would be better to consider why the tournament doesn't attract all of the strongest players or at least good regional representation ". I think I and the CFC do have to look carefully at this. But I think the quality of our champions over the last 5 years has been quite good, and so it seems we do attract a number of our top juniors, if not all of them:

2005 - Shiyam Thavandiran
2006 - Bindi Cheng
2007 - Leonid Gerzhoy
2008 - Artiom Samsonkin
2009 - Raja Panjwani

There are many things that interfere with stronger players playing - school, distance/expense, absorbing some of the expense personally of going to the World Junior, etc.. I don't think that this can be changed. This is the case, even if the structure went to a round-robin format. Because we had strong tournaments in days long past, where finances were different, also does not mean we would be any more successful now, than we are currently. But this needs more consideration.

Any opinions on this issue of how we attract our strongest juniors to the Canadian Junior?

Bob

[Kerry Liles]

Any opinions on this issue of how we attract our strongest juniors to the Canadian Junior?

Bob

I had posted elsewhere that even FIDE was willing to rate some games played via Internet connection (in a team match I believe...) so I suggest looking at allowing Juniors to play via Internet connection (with arbiters at each end of course). This might help eliminate the burden of travel and location.

Juniors would likely have less objection to the use of the technology than some other groups of players.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Kerry:

Good point. Michael Barron will have to explore that option.

I hope you voted ! I need to know whether I have support for my proposal, to help decide whether to proceed.

Bob

[Christopher Mallon]

We tried to do an Ontario Closed at least partly online last year - some people balked, and so it didn't happen. The Cdn Junior would make even MORE sense as an online event - naturally you need a trusted arbiter at each end for the games. (That may actually be a FIDE requirement?)

It could be held at 2-3 total sites (East/Center/West perhaps) with some computers at each to allow for games to be played that aren't between two people at the same location.

[Bob Armstrong]

Here are the standings at the World Junior in Argentina after 4 rounds ( Note the strength of the players ! ):

Leaders after 4 rounds:


Rk. Name FED Rtg Pts. TB1 TB2

1 YU Yangyi CHN 2509 4,0 7614 10,0
2 GM RODSHTEIN Maxim ISR 2623 3,5 7547 9,5
3 GM OLSZEWSKI Michal POL 2544 3,5 7490 9,5
4 GM VACHIER-LAGRAVE Maxime FRA 2718 3,5 7429 8,5
5 GM ZHIGALKO Sergei BLR 2646 3,5 7291 8,0
6 IM LALITH Babu M R IND 2477 3,0 7793 8,0
7 BLIT Jacques ARG 2350 3,0 7666 6,5
8 GM ANDREIKIN Dmitry RUS 2659 3,0 7476 8,0
9 GM LI Chao B CHN 2617 3,0 7464 9,0
10 GM HOWELL David W L ENG 2624 3,0 7461 8,5
11 IM MARGVELASHVILI Giorgi GEO 2509 3,0 7459 8,5
12 GM ITURRIZAGA Eduardo VEN 2605 3,0 7393 8,0
13 FM CORI Jorge PER 2445 3,0 7255 8,0
14 FM YILMAZ Mustafa TUR 2475 3,0 7208 7,0
15 GM POPOV Ivan RUS 2582 3,0 7189 7,0

It is too bad that some worthy Canadian junior is not participating, and getting this excellent international experience.

Bob

[Bob Armstrong]

I laid out a position/argument in favour of a change of the prize policy re the Canadian Junior Championship, and have attempted to do a poll. But I got only 7 other people to vote on the proposal, and it was divided, inconclusive. In terms of verbal reply posts, I got only 2 supportive replies, and one of them wanted one term of my proposal amended. The CFC Youth Coordinator, Michael Barron, prefers the current policy. However there seemed to be lots of interest in the issue, since there were 162 “ views “ of the few posts in less than 2 days. But because so many did not vote, nor post, I have to assume this is not considered a burning issue at the moment. And some of the posts caused me to reconsider my position.

As a result of all this, I have now decided to abandon my intent to change the policy. I now support the current policy, and here is the rationale now:

“ The point of the Canadian Junior is to pick the Canadian Junior Champion, and only secondarily to find a candidate for the World Junior ( a critical point made to me by Roger Patterson ). And we want to find a champion by attracting our strongest players to play. If we institute my proposal, is it true that the strongest player, if he is not wanting to go to the World Junior, for whatever reason, will NOT play ? Chances are “ yes “ because there is no prize for him – it will default over to the second place finisher.
But will he play if the prize can be kept and used for another major international tournament, if he doesn’t go to the World Junior? Now there is something for him to play for, even though he doesn’t want to go to the World Junior. It is attractive now for him/her to play.
So I guess the question is whether we want the strongest junior as Canadian Champion, or we want someone weaker as champion , but who will go to the World Junior?
I am now convinced that the current policy allows Canada the best hope for getting the strongest junior as Canadian Junior Champion, which is the main purpose of the tournament. It is secondary whether we send someone to the World Junior. But I fear it will only be the rare year under our current policy, when we will find our champion also wants to go to the World Junior.
If we want some junior to attend the World Junior, CFC may have to subsidize this participant, and chose him/her by rating list rather than by tournament, where the champion and next top finishers do not want to go.”

What do you think ? - should I have continued to try to change the policy, or am I correct to now abandon it?

Bob

[Bob Armstrong]

Here are the top board pairings for Rd. 6 - we see a number of familiar top tournament names in the group:

Bo. No. Name Rtg Pts. Result Pts. Name Rtg No.
1 3 GM ZHIGALKO Sergei 2646 4½ - 4½ GM VACHIER-LAGRAVE Maxime 2718 1
2 20 YU Yangyi 2509 4 - 4 GM RODSHTEIN Maxim 2623 5
3 6 GM LI Chao B 2617 4 - 4 GM ITURRIZAGA Eduardo 2605 7
4 4 GM HOWELL David W L 2624 3½ - 4 GM BINDRICH Falko 2516 15
5 2 GM ANDREIKIN Dmitry 2659 3½ - 3½ GM LEON HOYOS Manuel 2516 16

CFC needs to determine how it is going to send someone to the WJCC in a year when our Can. Junior Champion is not willing to attend. Is Canada just going to default attendance year after year?

Bob