A thought experiment

[Vladimir Drkulec]

The question came up in the AGM about the idea that FIDE was going to give 60000 Euros to the CFC. It is not a totally outlandish idea as the discussion has come up though not in that particular amount. Many federations do already get significant sums of money from FIDE to attend FIDE meetings and Olympiads. The CFC got some small amount that did not fully cover the cost of sending our FIDE delegate, Hal Bond but every little bit helps. I think Ireland and Scotland got quite a bit more.


If we did get 60,000 Euros or $87,782.81 CAD from FIDE or some other source with the understanding that we should use it to advance chess in Canada, how would you spend it? Suppose you would get a similar amount every year from now into eternity. What projects should be undertaken? Suppose that you had to provide a report to FIDE or the donor at the end of the year showing forward progress (more children and adults playing chess, more titled players - FMs, WFMs, IMs, WIMs, GMs, WGMs, more FIDE games played). How would more money help us move the ball forward as far as chess in Canada and Canadian Chess in the World is concerned?


How would your answer change if the amount was 30,000 Euros or 100,000 Euros?

[Kevin Pacey]

The question came up in the AGM about the idea that FIDE was going to give 60000 Euros to the CFC. It is not a totally outlandish idea as the discussion has come up though not in that particular amount. Many federations do already get significant sums of money from FIDE to attend FIDE meetings and Olympiads. The CFC got some small amount that did not fully cover the cost of sending our FIDE delegate, Hal Bond but every little bit helps. I think Ireland and Scotland got quite a bit more.


If we did get 60,000 Euros or $87,782.81 CAD from FIDE or some other source with the understanding that we should use it to advance chess in Canada, how would you spend it? Suppose you would get a similar amount every year from now into eternity. What projects should be undertaken? Suppose that you had to provide a report to FIDE or the donor at the end of the year showing forward progress (more children and adults playing chess, more titled players - FMs, WFMs, IMs, WIMs, GMs, WGMs, more FIDE games played). How would more money help us move the ball forward as far as chess in Canada and Canadian Chess in the World is concerned?


How would your answer change if the amount was 30,000 Euros or 100,000 Euros?

Hi Vlad

I didn't think it was like you to indulge in much 'iffy' thinking (I've been put down for doing such myself in the past); anyway, here's part of a cut and paste (and re-numbering) from a blog entry of mine re: goals the CFC might set for itself (many goals omitted, to suit the present thread) - what I'm putting here includes the CFC simply getting things back to what they used to be as much as can be done with a lot of new cash, plus, for starters anyway, some ideas for going beyond that (again with the use of a lot of new cash):


1. Have a server available one day for CFC members that's ready to be used;
2. Figure out how to promote chess better [as exciting] {cultural activity} - if nothing else, someday might have TV/Newspaper commercial(s) with a chess set plus refreshments on coffee table or picnic bench (no people present), with caption reminding people of chess in their childhood (asking if they would they like to brush up in a big way, then give CFC website address);
3. Promote rated Sections, or even whole events (by the use of cash incentives for organizers), designed to bring in many newcomers (takes advertising);
4. Improve CFC website, the face of the CFC (main page currently looks jumbled);
5. Might improve CFC Discussion Board, e.g. have specialized forums for non-Chess topics (compare e.g. OzChess, the Australian chess message board);
6. Provide some thing(s) for non-elite player adult CFC members (e.g. more funding for some types of local events);
7. Encourage growth of Canadian chess clubs (e.g. more discounts - maybe there's the possibility that the CFC might one day negotiate an arrangement with CMA/(equipment supplier[s]) to allow the CFC to indirectly offer discounts to clubs [and perhaps their members]);
8. Lots of [big] clubs helps promote team chess eventually too - could have team chess on internet as well;
9. CFC a force for chess education, e.g. core subject in schools;
10. Provide seperate Active and Blitz ratings;
11. Provide print CFC magazine again eventually;
12. Get a CFC physical office (and store) again eventually;
13. Besides chess books & equipment, CFC can sell e.g. T-shirts or perhaps even Canadian elite chess player [post]cards (with data);
14. Provide CFC Bughouse ratings eventually (perhaps same for Chess960, Crazyhouse & even other chess variants) - this may be more workable in the beginning if & when a chess server is up and running, if variants can be added as an option, but even now non-CFC rated Canadian bughouse events are increasing, as internet reveals;
15. Eventually lower CFC membership fees (e.g. by $3?);
16. Eventually lower CFC rating fees (e.g. by $1?).

[Vladimir Drkulec]

Hi Vlad

I didn't think it was like you to indulge in much 'iffy' thinking (I've been put down for doing such myself in the past); anyway, here's part of a cut and paste (and re-numbering) from a blog entry of mine re: goals the CFC might set for itself (many goals omitted, to suit the present thread) - what I'm putting here includes the CFC simply getting things back to what they used to be as much as can be done with a lot of new cash, plus, for starters anyway, some ideas for going beyond that (again with the use of a lot of new cash):


1. Have a server available one day for CFC members that's ready to be used;

Done. Its called FIDE Arena and apparently because of the deal that we made a few years ago, CFC members have advantages over USCF members.

2. Figure out how to promote chess better [as exciting] {cultural activity} - if nothing else, someday might have TV/Newspaper commercial(s) with a chess set plus refreshments on coffee table or picnic bench (no people present), with caption reminding people of chess in their childhood (asking if they would they like to brush up in a big way, then give CFC website address);

To run such an ad campaign would likely cost more than our entire revenue stream. Every person that I get these days comes from an internet search. You still have to talk to the newspapers and big news providers and have those things posted on the internet.

3. Promote rated Sections, or even whole events (by the use of cash incentives for organizers), designed to bring in many newcomers (takes advertising);

See 2. Everything you spend on advertising has to at least pay for itself.

4. Improve CFC website, the face of the CFC (main page currently looks jumbled);

It is jumbled but at least everything is there.

5. Might improve CFC Discussion Board, e.g. have specialized forums for non-Chess topics (compare e.g. OzChess, the Australian chess message board);

Our mission is not to promote non-chess topics.

6. Provide some thing(s) for non-elite player adult CFC members (e.g. more funding for some types of local events);

We had lots of funding for local events when we were doing Windsor Chess Association events using bingo funds. The end result was that 1500 players didn't want to play unless there were significant prizes for them. They also didn't want to help support the fundraising at bingos. The people who were supporting and volunteering for the bingos got annoyed and everything went back to the way it was before.

7. Encourage growth of Canadian chess clubs (e.g. more discounts - maybe there's the possibility that the CFC might one day negotiate an arrangement with CMA/(equipment supplier[s]) to allow the CFC to indirectly offer discounts to clubs [and perhaps their members]);
8. Lots of [big] clubs helps promote team chess eventually too - could have team chess on internet as well;
9. CFC a force for chess education, e.g. core subject in schools;
10. Provide seperate Active and Blitz ratings;
11. Provide print CFC magazine again eventually;

9. Its a goal but kind of difficult for a CFC volunteer board to do this across Canada when education is a provincial responsibility. There have to be individuals across Canada approaching local school boards.
10. Not feasible with the current manpower.
11. Way too expensive. We would have to triple CFC dues and that probably wouldn't be enough.
12. Not feasible or necessary at this time. The CFC almost went bankrupt because of the office and store. Things are tougher now.

12. Get a CFC physical office (and store) again eventually;
13. Besides chess books & equipment, CFC can sell e.g. T-shirts or perhaps even Canadian elite chess player [post]cards (with data);

Have you looked at the retail landscape for books and clothing? How are you going to do this and not lose lots of money? Also it would likely cause issues with our non-profit status.

14. Provide CFC Bughouse ratings eventually (perhaps same for Chess960, Crazyhouse & even other chess variants) - this may be more workable in the beginning if & when a chess server is up and running, if variants can be added as an option, but even now non-CFC rated Canadian bughouse events are increasing, as internet reveals;
15. Eventually lower CFC membership fees (e.g. by $3?);
16. Eventually lower CFC rating fees (e.g. by $1?).

14. When the job we are doing for regular chess is perfect we can think of extending the brand. You are asking for a lot more work for little or no more revenue. Bob Gillanders is stretched to the breaking point and we probably need to double in size to even be thinking about adding someone.
15. and 16. All this and you want to lower revenues? Fees go down simply by virtue of the fact that there have been no increases in CFC fees for as long as I can remember and inflation eats into everything.

[Kevin Pacey]

That's funny. I thought the spirit of this thread was to ask, what if the CFC had an influx of tons of money, e.g. every year. Within the years to come, in that case, resources and membership would hopefully grow as a matter of course.

I had hoped you would see the advantages to chess promotion of Canadian chess players writing to each other even more on message board(s), even if it's about non-chess topics. Strengthening bonds is important, and players are curious to see how other players perceive non-chess topics (which also could aid in gathering demographic information); at the very least it's a different service that the CFC can offer, to hopefully help attract more members. In case you had not noticed, this CFC Discussion Board, which almost exclusively focuses on chess-related topics, has been pretty inactive for ages, not counting CFC meetings or relatively recent threads started by myself (partly to try to help revive things). Perhaps you're happy with it that way, if you see yourself as a kind of fireman on chess message boards whenever any sort of 'smoke' arises.

What almost bankrupted the CFC, actually, was losing about 1,000 members between 2004-2007.

[Vladimir Drkulec]

That's funny. I thought the spirit of this thread was to ask, what if the CFC had an influx of tons of money, e.g. every year. Within the years to come, in that case, resources and membership would hopefully grow as a matter of course.

I had hoped you would see the advantages to chess promotion of Canadian chess players writing to each other even more on message board(s), even if it's about non-chess topics. Strengthening bonds is important, and players are curious to see how other players perceive non-chess topics (which also could aid in gathering demographic information); at the very least it's a different service that the CFC can offer, to hopefully help attract more members. In case you had not noticed, this CFC Discussion Board, which almost exclusively focuses on chess-related topics, has been pretty inactive for ages, not counting CFC meetings or relatively recent threads started by myself (partly to try to help revive things). Perhaps you're happy with it that way, if you see yourself as a kind of fireman on chess message boards whenever any sort of 'smoke' arises.

What almost bankrupted the CFC, actually, was losing about 1,000 members between 2004-2007.

They lost almost 1000 members because people got irritated that their orders were not being fulfilled in a timely basis. I have spent many hours talking to people about what happened back then.

Chesstalk has been calmer of late, I suspect in part because I can be unpleasant when we are attacked unfairly. I talk to many more people who are afraid to go on chesstalk because of the trolls and the attacks that would follow. I don't care about the attacks as I feel that I give better than I get but not everyone is comfortable with that and people get upset when I respond in kind to people who are simply trying to cause trouble. We are never going to tolerate that type of environment here. I appreciate that you have worked to help chess in the past and you do generate lots of content here. A lot of things are not possible because we don't have the manpower or womanpower or whatever the government wants us to call it. There are many programs that went by the wayside because we couldn't throw any resources at it. Remember that the members of the executive still have to earn a living in addition to the hours devoted to the CFC.

Boards can be a worry as they can lead to defamation and have to be monitored closely. At least if the topic is chess, the arguments are likely not to get too heated.

If things continue as they are, we will slowly grow, there may be FIDE or government money in our future and it is good to have a shopping list but in all likelihood there will be a component of "Own the podium" in either of those two scenarios so we will have to show results for at least some of that funding to continue.

[Kevin Pacey]

I see all that. One thing I'm still wondering about is, in a fantasy scenario (as in this present thread), if the CFC ever does get an influx of scads of cash each year, all of a sudden, why is it assumed that e.g. paid TV spot ads for the CFC would automatically fail? Back at the dawn of TV advertising, people must have resolved simply to try advertising whatever their product was on TV, and simply hope for the best. Even though nowadays the CFC would have safer alternatives, taking a chance on a one-time TV spot just might pay off, or it might fail (and then the case would be proven). Of course, the CFC should not do so if it cannot yet afford to lose the investment. In any case, free community TV spots might be available in some cities still. Still, I also cannot shake the feeling that there might be a certain lack of confidence in the ability of organized chess to sell itself in Canada, in a way that cannot outdo even a kid's cereal (which is a truly optional product, too).

Perhaps any unexpected large annual influx of cash for the CFC might be best spent on somehow improving the CFC's infrastructure, such as hiring another staff member (if somehow useful), if I was to look at things as conservatively as I could.

edit: Incidentally your initial reply to me, that included indicating that the CFC has had some sort of a server deal for a while now, was big news to me. I thought I was seeing things (as I am prone to do now and then), or that I somehow exasperated you to the point that you told a whopper to shake me off. I hope the CFC is making that FIDE server tidbit well known (though as I alluded to in other threads, I don't go to the CFC website, the FIDE website or even CT due to my fear of getting my aging laptop somehow infected, even if I'm being irrational about all that at this point in time).

[Vladimir Drkulec]

I see all that. One thing I'm still wondering about is, in a fantasy scenario (as in this present thread), if the CFC ever does get an influx of scads of cash each year, all of a sudden, why is it assumed that e.g. paid TV spot ads for the CFC would automatically fail?

The cost of advertising on CBC TV nationally for thirty seconds would probably be on the order of $40,000. We could blaze through the entire foundation funds with five minutes of ads. On top of that it would probably cost you somewhere between $65,000 and $500,000 to produce a professional grade commercial to air on tv. It would probably cost even more if you wanted it to be effective. You are advertising to a huge audience of unqualified buyers. What could you say in 30 seconds to get them to join? TV works if you are selling something that every viewer might want to buy like Coca-Cola or Molson Canadian. It doesn't work for a product like chess where we are chasing a tiny percentage of the viewers. If you can show me a way that we can make that work, I would be very interested.

Back at the dawn of TV advertising, people must have resolved simply to try advertising whatever their product was on TV, and simply hope for the best. Even though nowadays the CFC would have safer alternatives, taking a chance on a one-time TV spot just might pay off, or it might fail (and then the case would be proven).

If the cost of airing a 30 second commercial is $40,000 plus set-up costs of several hundred thousand dollars, I'm pretty sure everyone would be lining up with pitchforks outside my house.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/shorter-comm...isers-1.886304

https://www.webfx.com/blog/business-...-by-medium/#tv

Of course, the CFC should not do so if it cannot yet afford to lose the investment. In any case, free community TV spots might be available in some cities still. Still, I also cannot shake the feeling that there might be a certain lack of confidence in the ability of organized chess to sell itself in Canada, in a way that cannot outdo even a kid's cereal (which is a truly optional product, too).

The advertisers spend millions of dollars creating every ad for kids cereals and everyone watching is a potential customer for kids cereal. They make their money back with every ad or they stop running the ads. We can't afford to spend that much.

Perhaps any unexpected large annual influx of cash for the CFC might be best spent on somehow improving the CFC's infrastructure, such as hiring another staff member (if somehow useful), if I was to look at things as conservatively as I could.

edit: Incidentally your initial reply to me, that included indicating that the CFC has had some sort of a server deal for a while now, was big news to me. I thought I was seeing things (as I am prone to do now and then), or that I somehow exasperated you to the point that you told a whopper to shake me off. I hope the CFC is making that FIDE server tidbit well known (though as I alluded to in other threads, I don't go to the CFC website, the FIDE website or even CT due to my fear of getting my aging laptop somehow infected, even if I'm being irrational about all that at this point in time).

It was well advertised at the time we signed up but we really needed people to volunteer to help us get it off the ground. I believe it came online around 2015 or 2016 around the same time I had finished with the NFP act process and started the CYCC/CO/NAYCC tournaments. I could not take on additional duties with that, the CFC presidency and the three tournaments on my plate. I learned that the deal is still alive because there is a Canadian who wants to change from registration as a USCF member to a CFC member because the CFC member gets a much better deal and more features. I had thought they gave up on us but apparently not.

[Vladimir Drkulec]

I see all that. One thing I'm still wondering about is, in a fantasy scenario (as in this present thread), if the CFC ever does get an influx of scads of cash each year, all of a sudden, why is it assumed that e.g. paid TV spot ads for the CFC would automatically fail?

When an advertising spot on national tv costs $40,000 for 30 seconds and the cost of creating a professional commercial is probably into the hundreds of thousands you would have to double or likely triple the size of our membership with one thirty second ad in order to break even IF you could create this monstrously effective ad for free. Though its been a few years now, I took many marketing courses and have continued to read over the years but I am unaware of any ad capable of doing that. The lifestyle ads which you talk about elsewhere might be possible if we had millions of members already and could sustain them but the point is that you pay for views and the vast majority of the views come from people who are not in the market for what we are selling.

There was a book series a few years ago called Guerrilla Marketing by Jay Conrad Levinson. Its for small businesses who don't have a big marketing budget. This is our situation. We don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to create an effective ad. An effective ad typically has a response rate of 2% of people in your target group. People are not watching as much television. I suspect that people who find time to play tournament chess are watching even less than the average person.

Back at the dawn of TV advertising, people must have resolved simply to try advertising whatever their product was on TV, and simply hope for the best. Even though nowadays the CFC would have safer alternatives, taking a chance on a one-time TV spot just might pay off, or it might fail (and then the case would be proven).

I don't think TV advertisers ever just advertised anything and everything. The formula for advertising success is simple. Every ad has to pay for itself in increased income not just revenue. If we spend $40,000 on an ad spot we have to get $40,001 back at least.

Of course, the CFC should not do so if it cannot yet afford to lose the investment. In any case, free community TV spots might be available in some cities still. Still, I also cannot shake the feeling that there might be a certain lack of confidence in the ability of organized chess to sell itself in Canada, in a way that cannot outdo even a kid's cereal (which is a truly optional product, too).

Everything is an optional product on some level.

Perhaps any unexpected large annual influx of cash for the CFC might be best spent on somehow improving the CFC's infrastructure, such as hiring another staff member (if somehow useful), if I was to look at things as conservatively as I could.

I think we have to streamline what can be streamlined. We don't have the office anymore so we don't really have any place to put staff. If we get money from government or FIDE, there will be conditions attached and it is unlikely in the case of FIDE that paying for staff will be an acceptable use of funds. In the case of the federal government they might look on it differently but I suspect most of the money will have to go into programs and tournaments.

edit: Incidentally your initial reply to me, that included indicating that the CFC has had some sort of a server deal for a while now, was big news to me. I thought I was seeing things (as I am prone to do now and then), or that I somehow exasperated you to the point that you told a whopper to shake me off. I hope the CFC is making that FIDE server tidbit well known (though as I alluded to in other threads, I don't go to the CFC website, the FIDE website or even CT due to my fear of getting my aging laptop somehow infected, even if I'm being irrational about all that at this point in time).

I don't tell whoppers. We went ahead with the deal because you and others wanted a server. We called for volunteers and no one answered the call. It was not possible for me to do it at the time. I was surprised to learn that the server deal is still intact but we still need to promote it and we need some volunteers to administer it though to put it on a list of priorities it is probably not even in the top ten list.

[Pierre Dénommée]

Hire a FST to train our Olympic teams.
Introduce a real TD certification program with lectures and examinations.
Have a professional review of our Constitution with the intent of making a new one.
Help organisers who are facing deficits.
Encourage growth of Canadian chess clubs
Organise Canadian Club championship and Canadian team Championship.
Organise IM norm tournaments and WGM norms tournaments.
Bid on FIDE America other events (other then the NAYCC)
Bid on FIDE events

[Vladimir Drkulec]

Hire a FST to train our Olympic teams.

That would certainly be a possibility. We would have to consult with our players. Also we might ask what happened in the past when we took that approach.

Introduce a real TD certification program with lectures and examinations.

There is already a program in place for FIDE and I am not sure that we want to create barriers for smaller events.

Have a professional review of our Constitution with the intent of making a new one.

Why? The amount of work, effort and cost involved is daunting. Once the new constitution is in place it will not make a bit of difference in moving us forward on our objectives to promote chess. Our volunteers are stretched thin now. I don't see any outcry to open this can of worms again unless and until the government forces us to, as happened when the NFP Act required us to go through the continuation process. We did it then because we had to do it in order to survive. I can't imagine going through that voluntarily.

Help organisers who are facing deficits.

The best way would be to help organizers before they face deficits. Hopefully in the new handbook we can incorporate best practices.

Encourage growth of Canadian chess clubs
Organise Canadian Club championship and Canadian team Championship.
Organise IM norm tournaments and WGM norms tournaments.
Bid on FIDE America other events (other then the NAYCC)
Bid on FIDE events

All of those should be on our radar even if we don't get large pots of money from FIDE or governments.