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Thread: Something To Think About

  1. #1

    Default Something To Think About

    Last Thursday, Feb. 26, Scarborough CC started its 2008-9 club championship. The club championship is in 3 sections this year.
    The Championship Section is a 10-player round robin comprised of the top 8 rated players in the club registered ( this year is exceptionally strong with 6 masters , 3 experts and 1 “ A “ Class player ) – master Liam Henry, WFM/master Yuanling Yuan, master David Krupka, master John Hall, master Bryan Lamb, master Karl Sellars, expert Hugh Siddeley, and expert Andrei Moffat, along with the two winners of last year’s Reserves Championship – expert Oscar Villalobos; A Class Kevin Wu.

    The Reserves are split into two. There is an Open Section, and an U 1700 Section. In the top Reserves, 34 players registered, and the roster is headed by 3 experts and a number of A Class players who were formerly experts. In the U 1700 Section, 20 players registered. The winner of the Open Reserves gains entry into next year’s Championship Section, so there is something very worthwhile to play for in that section. The total of 64 players continued the highest numbers we have had out since early in the millennium. The highest we’ve had out this 2008-9 year is 68 players for the Howard Ridout Swiss in the early Fall, 2008.

    A minor administrative controversy arose just before the start of Rd. 1 in the Championship section. SCC is using carbon score sheets for the Championship section this year, to facilitate the collecting of games for our SCC Database ( we collect games handed in each week, enter them into our SCC Games Database, and then e-mail the week's games to each member ). Some of the players asked that the handing in of the carbons be " mandatory " – SCC has always previously maintained that handing in score sheets for the database was “ voluntary “. But it was argued that to make it voluntary was unfair in the top section. There the pairings are known in advance, since it is a round robin, and so a player can prepare for the opponent by looking up their games in the database. It was argued that it was unfair if some players handed in their games, thus allowing others to prepare against them, while others didn’t give opponents a chance to prepare, because they refused to hand in their carbons.

    Now I had requested of the executive that it be " mandatory " two weeks earlier, when I had suggested we use carbons this year....and the executive had unanimously turned me down. Their reasoning was that the emphasis at SCC was on friendship and members feeling comfortable playing there. To make it mandatory might make some championship section players unhappy – they might choose not to play or leave the club. Or at very least, they would be handing the carbons in under protest, and still be unhappy. The executive did not want to “ force “ members to do this if they didn’t want to. As well it seemed they didn’t want “ professionalization “ of the club to trump the “ friendly informality “.

    Legally, the organizers of a tournament “ own “ the score sheets:

    CFC Handbook:
    http://www.chess.ca/section_4.htm

    Article 8,
    " 8.3 The score sheets are the property of the organisers of the event. "

    So SCC, as the organizer, has the right to demand that if someone plays in the championship section, then they must hand in their originals. But the executive did not want to follow this path.

    Now it is also true, that with this position, other players may be unhappy. They feel they face unfair odds, if they comply with the wish of SCC that games be handed in, though voluntarily. And maybe one of them might quit the tournament in protest.

    The upshot was that the executive explained its position to the player raising the “ mandatory “ argument, and he withdrew his request ( though I believe he was still unconvinced of the executive position ).At the end of the first round, 7 of the 10 players cooperated and handed in their carbons. Three did not. So one game was missing. We can only assume they have refused, since it was announced that we were collecting the games if we could, and that was the reason for the carbons for the top section. And a number of the players in the section were around when the executive was explaining its position to one of the players. But these members are now well within their rights to refuse to hand in the carbons, since this is now CFC policy.

    One thing to keep in mind though is the main reason for the SCC Database – the enjoyment of members in being able to play over the games of other members. They may have seen part of the game in the evening and wanted to see how it turned out. Or they may have heard a member crowing about his win, and wanted to check it out. An additional reason for the database is club history – it is a historical record of players, ratings, tournaments, etc. for future members who are always given the full database when they become members.

    What do you think of our Executive Policy? What do you do at your club or in your tournaments?

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    In Manitoba, we do hand in score sheets for all players and for all sections when we have class tournaments to the tournament director. After the scoresheets are handed in, we decipher the scoresheets the best we can and post them on our website for members to view or download.

    As for the memberships view on the scoresheets being posted, we have not gotten back any negative feedback. The only feed back we get is that it is easy to check gamescores on Manitoba players and it is more difficult to find gamescores on other people outside the province.

    Hopefully this helps you on your decision.

  3. #3

    Default Handing in Score Sheet - Voluntary or Mandatory?

    Hi Ken:

    Thanks - interesting - didn't know you were doing that.

    Question: Suppose a member said that he objected to his games being in a database so others could prepare against him. He refused to hand in his scoresheet. And suppose his opponent decided to agree, and so neither of them would hand in their scoresheet. What would the tournament director do?

    Bob

  4. #4
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    It's simple. If there's no scoresheet, there was no game, so it's a double-forfeit. This is a common rule in larger events.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong
    Hi Ken:

    Thanks - interesting - didn't know you were doing that.

    Question: Suppose a member said that he objected to his games being in a database so others could prepare against him. He refused to hand in his scoresheet. And suppose his opponent decided to agree, and so neither of them would hand in their scoresheet. What would the tournament director do?

    Bob
    Scoresheets are mandatory to hand in. We have not gotten into an incident yet where a member did not want to hand in the scoresheet. It could possibly we have been doing this for years and we are all conditioned to hand them in. Our Tournament Director will also enforce this.

  6. #6

    Default Why the Mandatory Carbons Rule ?

    Hi Ken:

    For our purposes the more relevant question is : What would the MCA do if some members came forward and requested that the handing in of score sheets no longer be " mandatory ", but just " voluntary " - ie. any individual player could legally refuse to hand it in without consequence ?

    Bob

  7. #7

    Default

    The core mission of a chess club is to provide an environment to play chess. Anything which is not part of the core mission and annoys paying customers is probably something that should be avoided.

    And, unless you are prepared to forfeit players for not handing in a score sheet, you can't enforce the rule.

    In any case, why the obsession with forceing people to do things they don't want to do?

  8. #8

    Default Is Forcing a " Good " Idea?

    Hi Roger:

    Agreed that the club is the place to play chess. That's our Executive Policy now - players are not " forced " to hand in score sheets - it is voluntary to contribute to the club database.

    It was raised by some players in the Club Championship Round Robin that ALL should be forced to hand in the scoresheets in the top section. The argument was that if some hand in sheets, and some don't, there is an unfairness in ability to prepare for certain opponents who don't hand them in. The Executive turned down the request ( or more properly, the request was withdrawn when the policy was explained ). Did the players have a point that " forcing " in this case is a " good " thing ?

    My interest is in the Manitoba Chess Association which apparently does " force " all players in the weekend tournaments ( if I understand Ken correctly ) to hand in their score sheets. Should they be " forcing people to do things they don't want to do" ? What do you think of that?

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Armstrong; 03-01-2009 at 05:34 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong
    Hi Roger:

    Agreed that the club is the place to play chess. That's our Executive Policy now - players are not " forced " to hand in score sheets - it is voluntary to contribute to the club database.

    It was raised by some players in the Club Championship Round Robin that ALL should be forced to hand in the scoresheets in the top section. The argument was that if some hand in sheets, and some don't, there is an unfairness in ability to prepare for certain opponents who don't hand them in. The Executive turned down the request ( or more properly, the request was withdrawn when the policy was explained ). Did the players have a point that " forcing " in this case is a " good " thing ?

    My interest is in the Manitoba Chess Association which apparently does " force " all players in the weekend tournaments ( if I understand Ken correctly ) to hand in their score sheets. Should they be " forcing people to do things they don't want to do" ? What do you think of that?

    Bob
    I do not think that we are forcing our players from handing in scoresheets. It is just that we have done this for so long that everyone just complies (basically the person playing white hands in the scoresheet as s/he has the carbon sheet and the black player has a standard scoresheet) and is basically not an issue.

    The majority of our players will also correct the game if it cannot be transcribed properly. Just by this alone most of our players enjoy having their games on our website. I can come back with MCA stance on this as our next meeting is on April 2nd.

  10. #10

    Default

    Hi Ken:

    If all players in Manitoba " want " to hand in their scoresheets and enjoy the database on the website, then you are likely right to say you are not really " forcing " them to do it. The word is so negative.

    But still, it is " mandatory ". As you said in another post, your TD's would enforce the mandatory policy if they were called upon to by some situation.

    I find the fact that it is not " voluntary " interesting. Chess players are usually very independent and not amenable to being " told " what to do.

    Our problem in our club championship is that we do have players objecting to handing in the score sheets. Our issue is how we deal with them within a desired friendly club atmosphere, and what the policy should be.

    Bob

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