View Poll Results: I support Chris Mallon's proposal to split this motion in two.

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Thread: 13. CYCC Eligibility Motion (Motion 2012-A)

  1. #21
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    Default

    I would like to propose an amendment to the motion, either the original or the split as it turns out.

    1007. Age, Citizenship, and Residency for Canadian Championship:

    Each contestant in a Canadian Youth Championship must fulfill the age requirements specified by FIDE for the World Youth Championship to which the winner of the Canadian event will qualify. Each player shall be either (i) a Canadian citizen or (ii) a Permanent Resident. Additionally, the player must be registered or in the process of registering as a Canadian with FIDE, and must be eligible to represent Canada under FIDE rules at the World Youth Chess Championship for which this event is a qualifier.

    1057. Age, Citizenship, and Residency for Canadian Championship:

    Each contestant in a Canadian Junior Championship must fulfill the age requirements specified by FIDE for the World Junior Championship to which the winner of the Canadian event will qualify. Each player shall be either (i) a Canadian citizen or (ii) a Permanent Resident. Additionally, the player must be registered or in the process of registering as a Canadian with FIDE, and must be eligible to represent Canada under FIDE rules at the World Junior Championship for which this event is a qualifier.
    I removed the sections about non-Citizens/Permanent Residents being allowed to compete and added the part about needing to be eligible for the WYCC. Also note that for someone with no FIDE registration, signing up for the CYCC would constitute being in the process of registering as a Canadian with FIDE, so this won't exclude new players.

    Seconder anyone?
    Christopher Mallon
    FIDE Arbiter

  2. #22
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    I don't know I think what you are trying to say is that a player must not be registered for another country, or if so in the process of applying for Canadian status.

    I think they should have at least made the application before the CYCC (in other words not waiting to see if they need to).

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred McKim View Post
    I don't know I think what you are trying to say is that a player must not be registered for another country, or if so in the process of applying for Canadian status.

    I think they should have at least made the application before the CYCC (in other words not waiting to see if they need to).
    No, my comment was about someone with NO FIDE registration - ie someone who has never played a FIDE event before. Someone who has, for another country, would have had to already have their application in process.
    Christopher Mallon
    FIDE Arbiter

  4. #24

    Default A Matter of Equalilty

    Hi Chris:

    I am often willing to entertain amendments to motions I am involved in, where it seems reasonable, or necessary to get something passed.

    Unfortunately, I see this issue as one of equality rights in Canada ( regardless of what FIDE may have as regulations internationally ) with respect to Canadian Championships. I don't think we should compromise on such an important issue. So I would have to vote against your amendment, even though it is an improvement on what we have - but it does not meet the issue head on.

    Here is the " Commentary " I drafted and which accompanied the filing of the motion, on the " residence restrictions " part of the motion:

    e) The current p. 1007 restricts Permanent Resident rights, with a “ residency “ requirement for eligibility. It reads:

    1007. Age, Citizenship, and Residency for Canadian Championship:

    Each contestant in a Youth Tournament must fulfil the age and residency requirements specified by FIDE for the World event to which the winner of the Canadian event will qualify. Each player shall be either (i) a Canadian citizen or (ii) a landed immigrant and be a resident of Canada for the twelve-month period immediately preceding the tournament. Persons who are not citizens or landed immigrants but who have been a resident of Canada for a twelve-month period immediately preceding the tournament may be admitted to the Tournament provided they can clearly demonstrate to the CFC Board of Directors that they have a settled intention to continue to reside in Canada. The admittance to the Tournament of such exceptions shall be entirely at the discretion of the CFC Board of Directors.

    Canadian law now refers to “ landed immigrants “ as “ Permanent Residents “, and this change has been made. There are very few Canadian rights that a citizen has, that a " Permanent Resident " does not have. And CFC must be very careful not to unwarrantedly restrict those rights.
    As well, most Permanent Residents eventually take out Canadian citizenship. Many of those who keep their own country citizenship when they come to Canada, do so for a variety of reasons, but never have any intention of returning to their own country on any permanent basis. They all pay taxes, and contribute to their local Canadian communities. Then there are some for whom it is only a convenience for possible future use - but nonetheless, they have adopted Canada as their country of permanent residence, and have gained most Canadian rights and are entitled to use the term “ Canadian “.

    So, from a Canadian perspective, we want to eliminate the " prior residency " rule for participation in Canadian youth chess tournaments. We feel this respects the legal status of a Permanent Resident as a " Canadian ". They are entitled to play in the national youth championships, even if they have just taken up Canadian permanent residency.

    This does leave CFC though, with a restrictive FIDE rule which distinguishes between citizenship, and permanent residence ( and all other status ), for the purpose of which federation flag a person can put on their chess table in FIDE tournaments. CFC will have to live with this for the time being ( might we apply to FIDE to get this changed at some future date, for an accommodation to Canadian law ? ), and blame FIDE for a rule that " interferes with Canadian rights ". Yes, CFC will have to comply for international tournaments. But we do not have to compound the error by imposing a Canadian “ residency “ restriction.

    Besides believing it is right to delete the residency requirement, we are also concerned there could be a successful lawsuit to strike down a " residency " prohibition, that represses a Canadian permanent resident right, like playing in a national Canadian chess championship....

    h) We have dealt with p. 1057 which has a “ residency “ requirement, consistently with the way we have amended the comparable section for the Canadian Youth Chess Championships above.

    I would urge the governors to pass both parts of the split motion.

    Bob A

  5. #25
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Mallon View Post
    No, my comment was about someone with NO FIDE registration - ie someone who has never played a FIDE event before. Someone who has, for another country, would have had to already have their application in process.
    Yes, the only person who there is an issue for is someone with a different flag.

  6. #26
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    Default Cycc

    I have to disagree with Ken and Ellen.

    The CYCC should be positioned FIRST and FOREMOST as the OFFICIAL CANADIAN YOUTH CHAMPIONSHIP.

    This tournaments primary objective should be to determine the Canadian Champions for Canada.

    Secondarily, it should determine the players that are eligible to compete at the WYCC.

    I am still undecided as to whether it should be also to determine who can compete at the NAYCC or Pan Am YCC.

    The CFC's goal is to promote chess in CANADA.

    We have to have a National Championship.
    ~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
    Patrick McDonald
    International Arbiter
    International Organizer

  7. #27
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    Post Clarifications

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Barron View Post
    Valer,

    Sorry, if I was not clear enough...

    The question is not about citizenship.
    All Governors understand that both categories - citizens and permanent residents - are Canadians.
    Hopefully, you wan't insist that only citizens could play at Canadian Championship.

    The question is:
    When a permanent resident could work in Canada?
    When a permanent resident could attend a school in Canada?
    When a permanent resident could pay Canadian taxes?
    No, I do not want to insist that only citizens could play, far from it. My answer is identical for all 3 questions: as soon as they arrive in Canada and have applied/ received a SIN number.

    I agree Permanent Residents should be able to play without any restrictions regading the time spent in Canada.
    Valer Eugen Demian
    FIDE CM & Instructor, ICCF IM
    https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ches...593013634?mt=8

  8. #28

    Default What the CYCC is and what it should be.

    Hi Patrick,

    I do not disagree on what the CYCC should be, and certainly won't argue against the fact that the CYCC winners are declared Canadian Champions for their age groups.

    That doesn't change the fact that the CYCC is currently defined by the CFC rules as the qualifier for WYCC first and foremost. There are three Canadian Champion titles a junior can play for, the Junior, Youth and Scholastic Champion. Two of which are qualifiers for World events.

    I would support a proposal to change the wording of 1001 to introduce the determination of the Canadian Champion. If fide follows through with the threatened split of WYCC into 2 events we may need to consider focusing our attention on a different event. Maybe then we will drop WYCC all together.

    Ken Jensen

  9. #29
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    Default Suggestion on splitting the motion - request for feedback!

    What Chris (supported by a fairly strong margin of Governors) seems to want is to put all the sections 1007 and 1057 material in one motion with the remainder in the other.

    Based on Michael's 'updated' text that would seem to make things as follows:

    === Motion 1 ===
    e) p. 1007 of Section 10, is deleted, and replaced by:
    1007. Age, Citizenship, and Residency for Canadian Championship:

    Each contestant in a Canadian Youth Championship must fulfill the age requirements specified by FIDE for the World Youth Championship to which the winner of the Canadian event will qualify. Each player shall be either (i) a Canadian citizen or (ii) a Permanent Resident. Persons who are not citizens or permanent residents, but who have been a resident of Canada for a twelve-month period immediately preceding the tournament, may be admitted to the Tournament provided they can clearly demonstrate to the CFC Board of Directors that they have a settled intention to continue to reside in Canada. The admittance to the Tournament of such exceptions shall be entirely at the discretion of the CFC Board of Directors.

    h) p. 1057 of Section 10, is deleted, and replaced by:
    1057. Age, Citizenship, and Residency for Canadian Championship:

    Each contestant in a Canadian Junior Championship must fulfill the age requirements specified by FIDE for the World Junior Championship to which the winner of the Canadian event will qualify. Each player shall be either (i) a Canadian citizen or (ii) a Permanent Resident. Persons who are not citizens or permanent residents, but who have been a resident of Canada for a twelve-month period immediately preceding the tournament, may be admitted to the Tournament provided they can clearly demonstrate to the CFC Board of Directors that they have a settled intention to continue to reside in Canada. The admittance to the Tournament of such exceptions shall be entirely at the discretion of the CFC Board of Directors."


    === Motion 2 ===

    "Motion 2011 – A – Participation in the Canadian Youth Chess Championships

    Moved - Michael Barron; Seconded – Bob Armstrong

    Moved –

    a) the title of Section 10 of the CFC Handbook, “ Invitational Youth Championships: Junior, Cadet “, is deleted and replaced by “ Canadian Youth and Junior Chess Championships “.

    b) the title of p. 1000 of the CFC Handbook, “ Events: “, is deleted and replaced by “ Canadian Youth Chess Championship: “.

    c) p. 1001 of Section 10, is deleted, and replaced by:
    1001. Frequency:
    A Tournament shall normally be held each year to determine Canadian Champions and Canadian representatives to all international youth chess competitions.

    d) in p. 1002. Format, the words “ three days “ are deleted, and replaced by “ up to four days “.

    f) p. 1051 of Section 10, is deleted, and replaced by:
    1051. Canadian Junior Chess Championship:
    A Tournament known as the Canadian Junior Chess Championship hereinafter referred to as the Junior Tournament shall normally be held each year to determine the Canadian representative to the World Junior Chess Championship and consist of 2 sections - Open and Girls. When there are less than eight girls, then the sections shall be combined.

    g) in p. 1052. Format, the words “eight round tournament held over four days “ are deleted, and replaced by “nine round tournament held over five days “.


    ========================================
    I am looking for feedback from the President plus Messrs. Armstrong and Barron as to whether this is acceptable.

    If it is NOT acceptable then in fairness to the rest of the Governors this probably should be held over to the January meeting.

    Unfortunately we are now to day 4 which is the prescribed date for the beginning of voting. At this point I think a 24 hr delay in opening the voting booth is called for - what do you folks think??

    To summarize please folks, if you are going to have multiple versions of a motion please send me an e-mail saying "we withdraw A and offer B as a replacement" - it's the safest way to ensure there are no misunderstandings - but best not to make changes to a motion not received at all. There are some motions that I have seen as many as 4 revisions before hitting the GL or Online Meeting. I will not 'out' the culprits but that is both cruel and unusual punishment for the Executive and unfair to other Governors!

  10. #30

    Default

    Hi Lyle:

    1. Your division for new Motion 2012-A # 1, and 2012-A # 2, seem fine on my review. Thanks.

    2. It seems that the overwhelming majority of governors wanted the motion split, and there has been vigorous debate on the " residency restriction ", so I think governors are already aware of the issues. I myself don't see why the voting couldn't start tonight as planned.

    3. I have already posted my motion to amend the Zeromskis/ Barron motion 2012-E on the Canadian Junior Championship, and I would like it voted on before the main motion, and I am now searching out a seconder since no one has yet commented on my agenda item # 17 post. But if it will be helpful, I will also send you an e-mail on it.

    Bob A
    Last edited by Bob Armstrong; 10-04-2011 at 09:29 PM.

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