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Thread: Motion 2011-Z - Single Annual CFC Membership & Fee

  1. #1

    Default Motion 2011-L - Single Annual CFC Membership & Fee

    PEI CFC Governor, and CFC Treasurer, Fred McKim and I, have filed today a motion for the 2011 Spring Meeting, for a single annual CFC membership. Are you in favour or against the motion and why?

    Here is the motion/commentary:

    Motion 2011-L – A Single CFC Annual Membership

    11/3/29

    Moved: Bob Armstrong; Seconded: Fred McKim ( for the purpose of debate only )

    - that CFC replace the memberships for Adult, Family, and Junior, with a single new annual CFC membership, and the rate for the federal portion would be $34.
    .

    Commentary:

    A. Two Issues :the following have arisen in governor discussion:

    1. Amount of a single Annual CFC Membership Fee – The current federal portion of the annual fee collected is $ 36. It is felt that the new fee should be revenue neutral – that is, it will neither increase nor decrease expected CFC membership revenue for 2011-12. Bob G posted that the $ 30 in an earlier motion 2011-A was low, and that CFC would lose over $ 5000 next year if that $ figure was passed.

    At the same meeting, Treasurer Fred McKim stated that “ it would make sense that the tournament playing fee ( popularly called the tournament membership fee ), both adult and junior, be combined at the same time “ into a single fee. But this has been in the past a most controversial issue. Motion 2010-06 sought to replace the tournament playing fee with a first time CFC’er discounted annual membership. It was defeated in a straw vote at the 2010 Spring “ Trial “ On-line Meeting. Therefore, the mover and seconder withdrew their support for the motion. Thus the Minutes of the Outgoing Governors’ 2010 AGM state: “ Motion 2010-06 - First-time CFC Member introductory discount - Armstrong withdraws as mover. Gladstone withdraws as seconder. Motion withdrawn. “ Given this, it is felt best to first establish a new single annual membership, and then have a further discussion/motion whether the tournament playing fee still makes sense. I fear loss of support for Motion 2011-Z if the two issues are linked in one motion.

    2. Any justification for the current junior membership discount? - If the discount for juniors is justified, then perhaps the motion should be defeated, because at least one of the categories make sense. However, if for CFC, a discounted junior membership seems not justified, then the motion has merit.

    B. Issue # 1 - Annual Fee Required:

    As of May 10, 2010, CFC had about 1,430 annual paying members ( Honourary and Life Members eliminated ). In 2009-10, memberships generated $ 46,767
    Assume the Junior, Junior Participating and Family, are collapsed into the single fee, giving a junior membership of 472.

    A. the $ 33 scenario
    - a $ 33 annual membership fee would generate 1,430 X $ 33 = $ 47, 190 .. Thus $ 33 annual membership would be about revenue neutral on two conditions:

    1. Juniors in 2011-12 would have to renew 472 memberships. ( Note: if 56 ( 12 % ) of the juniors refuse to renew at the higher rate – this would lessen the revenue by 56 X $ 33 = $ 1,848. This leaves revenue of only $ 45,342.. So in this case, $ 33 would lead to an unacceptable decrease in revenue ) ;
    2. All 958 adults would have to renew.

    B. the $ 34 scenario – this would generate 1, 430 X $ 34 = $ 48, 620. The excess revenue would allow 12 % ( 56/472 ) of the juniors to refuse to renew, due to the increase, and still the unification of memberships would be revenue neutral.

    We feel some latitude must be allowed for non-renewing juniors. So we have opted for an annual unified membership fee of $ 34.

    C. Issue # 2 - Merits of the Motion

    The motion seeks to simplify the administration of CFC memberships, by eliminating multiple categories, and instituting only 3 memberships – an annual membership, as desired by this motion, the existing “ Life Membership “ and the Honourary Membership. This is clearly beneficial from an administrative point of view, and is less time-consuming for staff, and thus saves CFC some member administration costs.

    Here are some of the arguments that have been made on both sides of this issue:

    For the Junior Discount:

    1. Juniors get discounts on all kinds of things, and many other types of memberships, and CFC will look bad if it doesn't fall in line and give juniors a discounted annual membership.

    2. Juniors are the future of chess - as such CFC should do all it can to encourage juniors to play, and one way of encouraging them is a lower membership fee.

    3. Families with juniors often have tighter budgets, given the number of family members. So a discount increases the chance that scarce family revenue will be spent on a CFC Junior Membership.

    4. Even in chess, Juniors are given discounts - for example there is often a junior registration fee for weekend tournaments; there are often junior memberships for chess clubs. CFC will be out of step with other aspects of chess if they discontinue the junior membership discount.

    Against the Junior Membership Discount:

    1. CFC membership cannot be compared to other situations where juniors get discounts. There may be good reasons in other situations, but not re an annual CFC membership. It is a different situation, and thus can be eliminated. Roger Patterson of BC has noted:

    “ The standard economic argument for different prices for different groups is to maximize revenue by tailoring fees to the ability (willingness) of each group to pay. If anything, juniors these days are less price sensitive than adult players so giving them a discount is not economically justified. Perhaps in days gone by, but those days are gone. “

    However, I note the comment of Governor Valer Eugen Demian:

    “ … this clearly looks like milking the juniors for the benefit of adults. It is widely known junior tournaments far outnumber the adult ones in BC, so my point should be pretty clear! “

    2. From a membership processing point of view, a junior takes up the same CFC resources as a regular adult - he has a place on the list like an adult, a membership number like an adult, etc.

    3. From a tournament rating point of view, a junior in an adult tournament takes up the same CFC resources in maintaining their rating - it is processed the same way as any adult's rating calculation. In fact, though, for all junior events, there is a different step required, since the cost of rating is different. This adds to administrative work.

    4. Juniors get the Canadian Chess News, the same as adults.

    5. Administering one category of annual membership simplifies membership administration and will save CFC some staff time and money.

    D. Timing

    a ) The Issue

    It would not be beneficial from a member point of view, to see the CFC changing its membership fee structure a couple of times potentially , within a short time. And CFC can live with the multiple annual membership categories, which have now existed for some time. So it would seem that Motion 2011-Z should await a review and recommendation by the eventual Membership/Rating Fee Restructuring Committee, whenever it is finally staffed and starts to function. At the 2010 Fall Meeting, the assembly struck the Membership/Rating Fee Restructuring Committee. Bob G deferred the staffing of that committee, and so it again came onto the agenda of the 2011 Winter Meeting. Again there was lively discussing of the issues, and after the meeting I lobbied to get the Committee staffed and functioning. In discussing membership/rating fees, the committee was also to discuss the issues underlying Motion 2011-L. It was hoped they would have some recommendation for the governors when the motion came on for discussion and vote at the 2011 Spring Meeting. However, Treasurer Fred McKim advised that the executive was further delaying the functioning of the committee until CFC had its new website, since this might affect whether CFC should offer an annual membership fee, a tournament fee ( old rating fee ), or a combination as now. Unfortunately, the Treasurer, who is carrying the new website file on behalf of the executive,has indicated the new website will come on line in the time leading up to the July AGM. In this case, since it appears there will be no functioning Committee before the Meeting, there will be no recommendation on Motion 2011-L. For this reason, the motion should be postponed ‘til there is a committee recommendation.

    As well, Bob G and Fred have felt that the new CFC website might affect the debate on this motion, and the CFC membership structure.

    b ) Proposed Action

    Motion 2011-Z should be “ debated “ at the 2011 Spring Meeting. But as to voting, I will ask for the Chair to call a vote “ to postpone the motion to a fixed time, namely the July AGM agenda “. I am working on the assumption that only the governors can decide the course of its processing, within Robert's Rules of Order. Thus it is up to the Governors whether to discuss and vote on the Motion 2011-Z at the 2011 Spring Meeting, or to “ postpone “ it to the 2011 July AGM.

    E. Conclusion

    Governor/Treasurer Fred McKim ( who only seconded this motion so it could be brought to debate/vote, but he does not support it ) has noted that : “The negative publicity is going to be horrible. “ It is my view, as mover, however, that nevertheless, for a CFC membership, a junior discount is not warranted from an administrative cost point of view, nor otherwise, and CFC should move to a single annual membership for all.


    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Armstrong; 04-01-2011 at 07:31 PM.

  2. #2

    Default

    Absolutely against.

    Discounted fees/prices for young people are very common with clubs, businesses, sporting organizations, etc. There are a variety of arguments to support this practice (social justice, good business, get them while they're young, etc.). By offering a junior rate, the CFC is in the good company of many organizations (public and private).

    For the CFC, I think that it is very important to see young people as the grassroots of our game. If kids don't play, the CFC eventually dies. Or more likely they are drawn to our competition (CMA, online chess, ...). It is a competitive marketplace.

    The arguments above also blur the issue of rating fees for junior only tournaments with the annual membership fees.

    Talking about members taking up resources of the CFC is nonsense. It's not like the CFC incurs costs by adding a member. Aside from accepting the payment, a new member is pure profit for the CFC. Whether at the Junior rate or regular rate, it is all gravy.

    Administration costs being higher because of dealing with two membership categories. Any costs would have to be infinitesimal and if they are not there is a serious problem with how orders are processed at the CFC. As a justification "lower administrative costs" have to be the most absurd thing I've heard for a long time. We're in the day of computerized record keeping. We have long since moved out of rooms of clerks toiling away keeping the books.

    I have no children. I know no friends who have children who play chess. In no way do I directly or indirectly benefit from keeping the Junior rate. In fact, my own self interest would have me support the motion as I'd save a few bucks. But I don't support it at all.

    Much of what the CFC does I am fine with. Do it this way or do it that way. It's all good. I usually don't care. But on this issue I am vehemently opposed and don't understand the motivation for the motion to flatten fees.

  3. #3

    Default

    I think I can predict with fair certainty, Steve, that this motion will be defeated.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Karpik View Post
    Absolutely against.

    Discounted fees/prices for young people are very common with clubs, businesses, sporting organizations, etc. There are a variety of arguments to support this practice (social justice, good business, get them while they're young, etc.). By offering a junior rate, the CFC is in the good company of many organizations (public and private).

    .
    The CFC is supposed to set it's fees according to "social justice"? Apart from the difficulty in agreeing on what social justice is, nobody seems to care that adults who are unemployed, in low paying jobs, paying spousal support, or even adults who have kids have to pay the full freight. "Social justice" is a poorly defined concept, there is not agreement that subsidizing kids "is" social justice, and clearly focussing on one aspect of that concept is inconsistent.

    It may be common but that does not mean that those arguements apply to the chess world. It has been noted by others, that from a parents perspective, chess is dirt cheap compared to other activities for their children. I don't see any data to support the idea that the price elastisticity for kids is so much different from adults that a sharply different junior membership fee is warrented as "good business".

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by roger patterson View Post
    The CFC is supposed to set it's fees according to "social justice"? Apart from the difficulty in agreeing on what social justice is, nobody seems to care that adults who are unemployed, in low paying jobs, paying spousal support, or even adults who have kids have to pay the full freight. "Social justice" is a poorly defined concept, there is not agreement that subsidizing kids "is" social justice, and clearly focussing on one aspect of that concept is inconsistent.

    It may be common but that does not mean that those arguements apply to the chess world. It has been noted by others, that from a parents perspective, chess is dirt cheap compared to other activities for their children. I don't see any data to support the idea that the price elastisticity for kids is so much different from adults that a sharply different junior membership fee is warrented as "good business".
    Those are good points Roger. The proposed fee changes also dodge the main question: "what does one get for the membership fee?". It seems the benefits are limited to:

    1. you get the CFC pdf magazine (provided you have and provide an email address)
    (I know some people don't like it, but you can/should get it)

    2. you are able to play in CFC rated tournaments and have results rated by CFC (upon payment -by someone- of an additional per-tournament rating fee)

    3. you pay an additional n dollars to a provincial association (in some provinces or territories) which receive the money and use it to "sponsor and promote events" in that region (or just fritter it away - their choice apparently)

    Anyone care to add to the list? (I wish the CFC would add to the list)

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Liles View Post
    Anyone care to add to the list? (I wish the CFC would add to the list)
    CFC players have a chance to play in the World Chess Championship cycle. (the Closed is a starting point)
    Membership fees cover the CFC's FIDE membership (ability to have FIDE ratings, Canadians can play in WYCC, Canada participates in Olympiad)

    CFC membership fee is not only "to get", it is "to give" too.

    Kerry, you asked B.Sambuev to comment his game for the Newsletter. I think we should ask the Editor/CFC to spend money for a large article about the newest Canadian grandmaster (including several his wins
    Canada may have ALL Grandmasters Olympic team the next year (I think it may be the FIRST time ever.)
    .*-1

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Karpik View Post
    Absolutely against.
    That is right. Juniors have less rights in the organization. Why do they must pay the same price?
    .*-1

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
    CFC players have a chance to play in the World Chess Championship cycle. (the Closed is a starting point)
    Membership fees cover the CFC's FIDE membership (ability to have FIDE ratings, Canadians can play in WYCC, Canada participates in Olympiad)

    CFC membership fee is not only "to get", it is "to give" too.

    Kerry, you asked B.Sambuev to comment his game for the Newsletter. I think we should ask the Editor/CFC to spend money for a large article about the newest Canadian grandmaster (including several his wins
    Canada may have ALL Grandmasters Olympic team the next year (I think it may be the FIRST time ever.)
    I think an article about Sambuev would be great - especially if he annotates a few of his games... You are right about the eligibility for FIDE participation, but that surely is a benefit that very few CFC members take advantage of ...

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Egidijus Zeromskis View Post
    That is right. Juniors have less rights in the organization. Why do they must pay the same price?
    And what rights would they be missing?

  10. #10

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    The right to serve as Governors.

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