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Thread: YCC Qualifiers - Good Idea?

  1. #1

    Default YCC Qualifiers - Good Idea?

    The CFC, a few years ago, decided to end the CYCC being open to all entrants, regardless of rating, so long as they paid an entry fee ( this new system was deferred for a year, and didn't apply to the 2010 CYCC in Windsor, Ontario ). Instead, the CFC wanted to put in place a " qualifier system " for the CYCC - you could only play in a CYCC if you qualified in a province-wide Youth Chess Championship [ YCC ] ( or regional Youth Chess Championship in a province ), Thus entry to the CYCC was being " restricted ".

    The issue: would CYCC get as many players under this new qualification system as they had under the " open " system - 150 players on average over the last 5 years?

    The governors are currently debating this on the confidential CFC Governors' Discussion Board, but I would like to get member opinion and thoughts on this. Some governors want to modify the system to have qualifiers, to generate interest in the provinces ( the top finishers would get some type of bursary toward the expense of going to the CYCC ), but to keep the CYCC " open " as it was. Also there is concern that the CFC has done little to develop the YCC system in the provinces, so far, and the qualifiers, if they come about, are for the 2011 CYCC in Richmond Hill ( the bid just recently accepted by the CFC ).

    I agree that the current project is for Michael Barron, as Youth Coordinator, to personally contact each Provincial Affiliate, and start trying to develop with them some way for them to hold at least one Province - wide YCC. I propose this as a starting model, because it seems there are substantially fewer CFC juniors in the smaller provinces - it clearly will be necessary to try to attract new juniors through this YCC tournament; in some ways though, a couple of regional YCC's are easier on parents' pocket-books, since it may allow more not to have the accomodation expense associated with a tournament out of town; but that requires more organizers.

    If we could get just one YCC per province, the potential CYCC qualifiers is actually very high, combined with the other provincial qualifier criteria:

    Item 1 : Top 3 qualifiers from that year’s YCC’s = 12 ( 6 groups, open & female ) X 3 winners x 10 provinces = 360 players.
    Item 2 : Top 3 qualifiers to WYCC from CYCC previous year = 12 ( 6 groups, open & female ) X 3 winners = 36
    Item 3 : No. of Highest Rating from Provinces = 12 ( 6 groups, open & female ) X 10 provinces = 120.

    ( I assume that if a qualified player wins a place by a second route, then their spot in the 2nd time goes to the next place finisher, so all qualifier spaces get taken )

    Maximum Total ( If all eligible attend ): 360 + 36 + 120 = 516 !

    Of course, this must be adjusted down because not all provinces will have
    48 juniors who could attend ( YCC - 36; Top-rated - 12; additional ones if the province had a prior year WYCC'er ). But if the system generates more junior interest, and draws out new junior players, who knows how many from a small province might end up being entitled to come. Then of course, the issue is those entitled, who then decline - are there juniors further down the finishing ranks, who would be willing to replace them?

    What I am saying is that even with 1 YCC per province, the potential for CYCC attendance to go up is good, even with the " restrictive " aspect to the CYCC ( that players must somehow " qualify " ). And for the unique case of Ontario, with so many strong juniors in each group, there are already some regional YCC's , in addition to the provincial OYCC, so more than 3 per group could qualify in Ontario.

    The issue is will the smaller provinces undertake the effort for this one year, and promote the tournament to non-CFC juniors as well, to give the new system a " trial run " for the 2011 CYCC.

    Richmond Hill has said it is willing to try the new system, and revised its bid accordingly. They are taking on the risk. CFC needs now to make the effort to put the YCC system in place.

    What do you think of this new system the CFC has put in place, and is in the process of developing for the 2011 CYCC?

    Bob

  2. #2

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    Hi Bob,

    There was a lot to digest in your post. Here are some additional questions and comments:

    1. Could you put in point form what people feel are the advantages and disadvantages of implementing Provincial YCC Qualifier tournaments?
    - One advantage I see would be a qualifier would produce better quality games between CYCC competitors, e.g., a 1st time (or second time) player would not be paired with a previous National Champion.

    2. How many provinces currently hold Provincial YCC Qualifer tournaments?

    3. Do we have the names and contact info for each of the Provincial Junior Coordinators? If so, perhaps it would be a good idea to contact them directly for their opinions on this matter; and to find out from them what parents/players in their province are saying. Also, what challenges they are/will be facing.

    4. Is it possible to examine the results from those provinces that currently hold Provincial YCC Qualifiers? Who were the top 3 players in each section? Did all 3 of these players go on to play in the CYCC that year?

    I would venture to guess that all top 3 players did not. Also, if the non-top 3players are excluded from competing in the CYCC (again looking at past CYCC partipants stats), wouldn't that be a significant drop in CYCC attendence?

    Victoria Jung-Doknjas

  3. #3

    Default Some Analysis of the New YCC Qualifier System

    Hi Victoria:

    You digested the post very well - good questions.

    I am not directly involved in Youth chess as a governor. But I am trying to follow the debate, and bring it to the members for analysis. So I am going to post your questions for you on the confidential Governors' Discussion Board, and ask if the Youth Coordinator will come here to the members' board to answer them.

    However, I will take a shot at answering a few of them, while waiting for Michael Barron, CFC Youth Coordinator.

    Q 1 - The major advantage of the system is the drawing of many more juniors into CFC youth chess, by promoting playing in the provinces, not just at the CYCC. A province can hold a provincial YCC and/or regional YCC's, each of which sends qualifiers directly to the CYCC. CFC sees many more than only 150 juniors getting involved in total ( the average attendance at the CYCC in the last 5 years ).

    The disadvantage is that some fear the " restricted access through qualifiers " will in fact lower CYCC attendance ( you can see from my post I think the opposite will be the result - CYCC attendance will rise ).

    What is neutral is the quality of the tournament - there will be little difference between the " open CYCC " and the " qualifier CYCC ". The reason is that the top three from many provinces are low rated in comparison with the top players in the country. Also, since a province can have as many regional qualifiers as they want, and each can send their top three finishers, these regional qualifiers will likely be weak, relatively speaking.

    Q 2 - 3 provinces to my knowlege hold YCC's - Ontario, BC, and I think Alberta.

    Q 3 - The CFC Youth Coordinator has, or can get, the contact info for provincial youth coordinators ( in fact, I believe not all provinces have one, and so some provincial executive will likely be the contact person ). The contact with them by the CFC Youth Coordinator will be for the purpose of persuading them to participate, since the CFC now has the new qualifier system in place ( the motion was passed a few years ago ). CFC would hope that the provincial affiliate would then promote the YCC(s ) to the parents of chess youth ( both CFC and non-CFC ). The CFC undertakes to work with the provinces to implement the system, and overcome any difficulties ( hopefully ).

    Q 4 - " Who were the top 3 players in each section? Did all 3 of these players go on to play in the CYCC that year? "

    I know that you could contact Patrick McDonald ( Ontario/South-Western Ontario Chess League CFC Governor ) - he has been running the OYCC ( e-mail on " Contact Us " list on CFC Website ). Ontario also has regional YCC's, and I think Ontario/Greater Toronto Chess League Governor Chris Field has run one or more of them. I don't know the other provinces organizers - I would think you could find out by contacting the Provincial Affiliate.

    Q 5 - Will CYCC attendance drop at the 2011 CYCC in Richmond Hill?

    As I said in my post, I think the numbers will go up. The reason is that there are a total of 516 eligibles under the Handbook criteria, if the provinces only hold 1 province-wide YCC. But regionals can be held. So if a youth fails to make the top three, he can try again in a regional. And a regional can be organized by anyone, with any number and level of players ( with some Handbook conditions applying to how to hold the event ). So many more than just the top three in a group could potentially attend, increasing the " eligibiles " beyond the base 516.

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Armstrong; 11-24-2010 at 09:04 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Limited Ability of Smaller Provinces to Participate in CYCC

    Governor Stuart Brammall ( Ont/South-Western Ontario Chess League ) has drawn a relevant statistic to my attention - 5 provinces do not have 50 CFC members, let alone 48 CFC juniors to fill all the eligible provincial spaces ( Saskachewan, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, and PEI; note that I have left the 3 territories out of the discussion, because of their low or non-existent CFC membership ). This shows the need for the Provincial Affiliates in those provinces to strongly promote the YCC to the non-CFC junior chess players and parents. They have lots of eligible spots, and only need the players to fill them. But this will obviously somewhat drop the anticipated numbers for the CYCC that I had optimistically been projecting.

    But 5 Provinces at 48 players per province still gives 240 players at the CYCC + whomever comes from the 5 small provinces + the extra Ontario qualifiers from the regional qualifiers in Ontario. We are still way ahead of the 150 player average for the CYCC.........and we've had a whole lot of juniors playing chess in the provinces in CFC-rated YCC's, which was only happening in 3 provinces up to now.

    Bob

  5. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong
    The CFC, a few years ago, decided to end the CYCC being open to all entrants
    The motion was passed in July 2009, at the annual meeting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong
    The issue: would CYCC get as many players under this new qualification system as they had under the " open " system - 150 players on average over the last 5 years?
    The average for the last five years is 161.4, though that period includes the two biggest CYCCs

    2006 Kitchener 155,
    2007 Ottawa 195,
    2008 Quebec 161
    2009 Victoria 129
    2010 Windsor 167

    Victoria suffered because it is relatively remote, and the recession was in full swing. Ottawa is a great tourist city, and had a strong organising group. Windsor had a good turnout of local players.

  6. #6

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    Hi John:

    Thanks for correcting the somewhat loose factual statements.

    You asked for an exemption from the qualifier system for your 2010 CYCC in Windsor.

    What is your opinion of the YCC qualifier system now, as applicable to the 2011 CYCC in Richmond Hill?

    Bob

  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong
    Hi Victoria:

    You digested the post very well - good questions.

    I am not directly involved in Youth chess as a governor. But I am trying to follow the debate, and bring it to the members for analysis. So I am going to post your questions for you on the confidential Governors' Discussion Board, and ask if the Youth Coordinator will come here to the members' board to answer them.

    However, I will take a shot at answering a few of them, while waiting for Michael Barron, CFC Youth Coordinator.

    Q 1 - The major advantage of the system is the drawing of many more juniors into CFC youth chess, by promoting playing in the provinces, not just at the CYCC. A province can hold a provincial YCC and/or regional YCC's, each of which sends qualifiers directly to the CYCC. CFC sees many more than only 150 juniors getting involved in total ( the average attendance at the CYCC in the last 5 years ).

    The disadvantage is that some fear the " restricted access through qualifiers " will in fact lower CYCC attendance ( you can see from my post I think the opposite will be the result - CYCC attendance will rise ).

    What is neutral is the quality of the tournament - there will be little difference between the " open CYCC " and the " qualifier CYCC ". The reason is that the top three from many provinces are low rated in comparison with the top players in the country. Also, since a province can have as many regional qualifiers as they want, and each can send their top three finishers, these regional qualifiers will likely be weak, relatively speaking.

    Q 2 - 3 provinces to my knowlege hold YCC's - Ontario, BC, and I think Alberta.

    Q 3 - The CFC Youth Coordinator has, or can get, the contact info for provincial youth coordinators ( in fact, I believe not all provinces have one, and so some provincial executive will likely be the contact person ). The contact with them by the CFC Youth Coordinator will be for the purpose of persuading them to participate, since the CFC now has the new qualifier system in place ( the motion was passed a few years ago ). CFC would hope that the provincial affiliate would then promote the YCC(s ) to the parents of chess youth ( both CFC and non-CFC ). The CFC undertakes to work with the provinces to implement the system, and overcome any difficulties ( hopefully ).

    Q 4 - " Who were the top 3 players in each section? Did all 3 of these players go on to play in the CYCC that year? "

    I know that you could contact Patrick McDonald ( Ontario/South-Western Ontario Chess League CFC Governor ) - he has been running the OYCC ( e-mail on " Contact Us " list on CFC Website ). Ontario also has regional YCC's, and I think Ontario/Greater Toronto Chess League Governor Chris Field has run one or more of them. I don't know the other provinces organizers - I would think you could find out by contacting the Provincial Affiliate.

    Q 5 - Will CYCC attendance drop at the 2011 CYCC in Richmond Hill?

    As I said in my post, I think the numbers will go up. The reason is that there are a total of 516 eligibles under the Handbook criteria, if the provinces only hold 1 province-wide YCC. But regionals can be held. So if a youth fails to make the top three, he can try again in a regional. And a regional can be organized by anyone, with any number and level of players ( with some Handbook conditions applying to how to hold the event ). So many more than just the top three in a group could potentially attend, increasing the " eligibiles " beyond the base 516.

    Bob
    Thank you, Bob, for answering these questions!

    I mostly agree with your answers, with a few small comments:

    1) Unfortunately, I don't have the contact info for provincial youth coordinators (besides Ontario and BC).
    If somebody could help me to find it - please respond to this thread.

    2) The intent of new qualification system - to encourage provincial and local organizers to run more youth chess competitions.
    The more players, the more tournaments - the better!

    3) To make this idea a success we need CFC to work as an organization - all Governors, all affiliates need to do their part of work.
    Just look at Canadian Chess Challenge - every year at National final compete 120 young players from all 10 provinces.
    I believe, with little help and encouragement from provincial organizations, at CYCC could play at least twice as many players!

    Let's all work together!
    Thanks,
    Michael Barron

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Barron
    Unfortunately, I don't have the contact info for provincial youth coordinators (besides Ontario and BC).
    If somebody could help me to find it - please respond to this thread.
    The CFC website links to all the provincial associations... go to their websites, look up the youth coordinator. If there isn't a youth coordinator, contact the president. I wish all the questions had such easy answers.

  9. #9

    Default YCC's in the Smaller Provinces

    Given Governor Brammall's research that there are 5 provinces with less than 50 CFC members ( Saskatchewan, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, PEI, and Newfoundland Labrador ), it seems to me that the YCC's in those provinces will be good opportunities for the Provincial Affiliates to increase the number of CFC juniors in their ranks. Promoting the YCC's in schools, especially where there may be chess lessons, and lunch or after school chess clubs, should attract new juniors to the CFC. And as enticement, there are the prizes of the top 3 places in each group " qualifying " to the national youth championship, the CYCC, in Richmond Hill. As well, the top finishers will receive some prize subsidy toward their expenses to the CYCC. This seems to be a golden opportunity for the smaller provinces.

    Does anyone know whether any of these provinces yet have in the works, any planning toward a YCC for 2010 or 2011?

    Bob
    Last edited by Bob Armstrong; 11-26-2010 at 06:18 PM.

  10. #10
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    Default

    Bob: I don't think any of the Provincial Associations in Atlantic Canada would feel slighted if you or Michael approached the organizers of the Provincial Chess Challenges.

    I will e-mail you both the contact information for these 4 provinces.

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