5.E Discussion Item with regard to youth membership, YCC and youth rating fees

The following motion was received after the deadline for including motions and providing the requisite notice. It can be taken up for discussion at the Spring meeting and depending on the results of discussion may be taken up at the AGM in August.
I like to submit motions to increase our revenues as follows:


Increase Jr. membership fees to match adult membership fees.
Increase Jt. Rating fees from $0.50 to $1.00
Increase YCC qualifiers fees to $5 per player, and $2 of this go to general revenues


I believe the chess parents will not object to increasing membership fees $1 a month. It is insignificant relative to the cost of educating their kid for lessons and other activities.
With the extra money we can do more things.




See the stats:




http://chess.ca/membership-stats




Jr Members are almost as many as adult members in total.
We have more paying Junior members in Ontario than adult members. 555 vs 486
We put more effort in organizing the juniors.




Best Regards,




Undriadi Benggawan
CFC Junior Coordinator

In general, I do not believe that any fees collected for YCC's should go to general funds. It should all go to the youth fund.

There are two schools of thought with regard to non-profit membership fees. To this point in my administration we have adhered to the idea that we try to avoid raising membership fees. It is possible then that we might at some point hit hard times and have to precipitously increase fees simply to survive. We are not anywhere near that point at the moment. In fact our numbers are up. I am expecting a healthy surplus even with the expense of paying for the Olympiad though that belief is based on my reading of the increase in the number of members and the fact that we are not really doing much differently than last year.

The alternative view of non-profit fees is that we should increase them to match inflation and thus avoid a future financial squeeze in the event that the economy or circumstances move against us in some way.

My suggestion is that there probably should be some differential between youth and adult fees as most organizations do maintain such a differential.

I talked to parents at OYCC. Most did not view raising membership fees with any alarm. Many of them compared the cost of fees and memberships for chess favourably when compared to other activities that their children were involved in. Note that it is possible to attend OYCC and not pay any membership fees at all. Players that only play in youth tournaments and do not play against adults or in national championships are not required to have a CFC membership.

I did get some pushback from Patrick McDonald with regard to raising YCC fees as these do affect the bottom line of organizers who are volunteers and most of whom would simply absorb the additional fees and feel a bit annoyed about it.

We recruit a lot of new junior CFC members out here in BC and probably everywhere else too.
I feel that the lower cost for annual and tournament memberships helps us get kids into chess and I'd like to see the discount maintained.
The junior rating fee is another matter. Rating all-junior events for 50 cents a player makes no sense. Given the labour involved, the CFC probably loses money by doing this.
My sense is that there would be no resistance to raising the rating fees because they are covered by entry fees and my experience is that entry fees are of less concern to players than membership costs, also easier to collect.
Why should we be selling a $3 service, for which there is great demand, for 50 cents? Make it $3 for everyone.

In general, I am FOR equalization in all costs, that there be no age-ism. At the same time, I do see some merit in the position to vector youth revenue towards youth.

I don't believe we need to change everything at once. Maybe an initial step is in order.

Rating fees and YCC fees we probably could change unilaterally as I noticed that there was some provision for that in the original handbook motions. I'm not sure I want to do anything too radical.

Membership fees are at the discretion of the voting members. This would have been a motion at the meeting if it had been submitted in time to give the required three weeks notice.

Juniors pay the same $3 rating fee for Open tournaments. The discount rating fee of $0.5 only applies to tournaments with only juniros. CMA also charges $0.5 rating fee. An increase in juniors only tournaments rating fee may cause a substantial shift of junior tournaments using CMA rating.

I agree with Vlad that YCC qualifiers fees should go to the the Youth fund, not to the General fund.

I agree with Paul that we should maintain a discount on junior membership fee, but do not see an small increase in the junior membership fee conflicts with maintaining a junior membership discount. We have about 800 junior memberships, a $5 increase will generate $4000. My only concern is that the increase amount should go to the Youth fund to support junior activities.

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Originally Posted by Michael Lo

Juniors pay the same $3 rating fee for Open tournaments. The discount rating fee of $0.5 only applies to tournaments with only juniros. CMA also charges $0.5 rating fee. An increase in juniors only tournaments rating fee may cause a substantial shift of junior tournaments using CMA rating.

I agree with Vlad that YCC qualifiers fees should go to the the Youth fund, not to the General fund.

I agree with Paul that we should maintain a discount on junior membership fee, but do not see an small increase in the junior membership fee conflicts with maintaining a junior membership discount. We have about 800 junior memberships, a $5 increase will generate $4000. My only concern is that the increase amount should go to the Youth fund to support junior activities.

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It would be wrong to place membership fees in the youth fund in the same manner that it would be wrong to place YCC funds in general revenues. There are costs associated with memberships. If junior memberships increase then those fees should go to general revenues. Currently Bob has to spend much time on inputting junior tournaments which tend to be formatted incorrectly or have lots of new players who have to be assigned membership numbers even though strictly speaking they are not becoming members.

A few key points:

(1) the original purpose of the regional YCCs was to raise funds for the provincial YCCs with the provincial fees a fundraiser to send provincial reps to the CYCC. This was particularly so for BC, AB and SK whose travel costs are normally the highest in the country. I thought the original concept was sound. I have >NEVER< liked the idea of parents being able to pay their kids' way into CYCC and WYCC for spots they did not win over the board.

(2) over the last 10-15 years we've had a huge increase in expectations by players and families for the junior program. 40 years ago BC's junior program was $50 / year most of which went for postage and mimeographs of tournament ads. Unless you won a provincial junior the farthest we ever travelled was Vancouver -> Victoria or possibly Seattle. Out of that program came Jonathan Berry, Peter Biyiasas, Bruce Harper, Nigel Fullbrook, Robert Chow plus most of Vancouver's experts currently 50-60 years old. And also me who though never more than a marginal class A / B player worked mostly as a TD and organizer. I'm not saying shoestring budgets are necessarily more successful but expectations have definitely changed.

(3) I've always supported 'concession rates' for the kids though do think 50 cent rating fees are unreasonable PARTICULARLY given the negligence of many TDs in collecting full information on their junior registrants in junior events which I believe causes the Office more work than their adult counterparts. This was especially true when the CFC was in the books and equipment business since the whole point of these discounts was to facilitate CFC marketing.

In short I support
- YCC funds going to the CYCC program; I do NOT support non-winners going to the next stage
- strict enforcement that NO ONE play in a qualifying event when they wouldn't be eligible for the next stage in the cycle
- continuing junior membership fees

I do NOT support
- maintaining the 50 cent fee for all junior tournaments; $3 / player is probably too high but 50 cents is too low

I believe that YCC fees can be increased without involving voting members other that in an advisory manner. If the majority think it is a bad idea then we shouldn't do it. Rating fees likewise should be the purview of the executive. I think increasing the rating fee to $1 for regular rated junior events would probably not represent much of a hardship and would not disadvantage us vis a vis the CMA who are also looking to raise rating fees slightly. I believe it is 0.75 per player in non-qualifier type tournaments.

Thank you, Undriadi, for thinking about improving junior chess in Canada!

Unfortunately, these Motions are not ready for this Meeting.
Such matters should be discussed by the Youth Committee first, and after discussion and amendments, if necessary, could be brought to the Voting Members Meeting.

It is well known that parents will pay more for their childrens activities than for their own. Running the CFC, which includes our junior programs, costs money and we should not be shy about using junior membership fees, junior rating fees and some of the CYCC fees to help cover our administrative costs. I support some increase in these fees in order to give our organisation a more sound financial footing.
Les Bunning

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir Drkulec

I believe that YCC fees can be increased without involving voting members other that in an advisory manner. If the majority think it is a bad idea then we shouldn't do it. Rating fees likewise should be the purview of the executive. I think increasing the rating fee to $1 for regular rated junior events would probably not represent much of a hardship and would not disadvantage us vis a vis the CMA who are also looking to raise rating fees slightly. I believe it is 0.75 per player in non-qualifier type tournaments.

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The NFP act has changed since I previously familiarized myself with it. In the past, membership dues were decided by the voting members unless my memory has failed me. A search of the current act yields the following information.

Annual contributions or dues
30 Subject to the articles, the by-laws and any unanimous
member agreement, the directors may require
members to make an annual contribution or pay annual
dues and may determine the manner in which the contribution
is to be made or the dues are to be paid.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/PDF/C-7.75.pdf

Canada Not-for-profit
Corporations Act
CODIFICATION


S.C. 2009, c. 23
Current to May 9, 2018
Last amended on May 1, 2018

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Barron

Thank you, Undriadi, for thinking about improving junior chess in Canada!

Unfortunately, these Motions are not ready for this Meeting.
Such matters should be discussed by the Youth Committee first, and after discussion and amendments, if necessary, could be brought to the Voting Members Meeting.

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The youth committee cannot vote on membership fees. They can offer an opinion which we would have to consider. I did speak with a number of parents attending OYCC about raising junior fees which I was initially dead set against. I am not dead set against it anymore but would like to understand what we would spend the extra money on.

As the Youth Coordinator for the OCA and the organizer of the OYCC, I would vehemently oppose the raising of the YCC fees. This will reduce the amount I can offer to the winners and top finishers of each section as bursaries to get them to the CYCC. The funds still go to the Youth fund in the form of more players attending the CYCC.
In fact, I believe we need to take another look at the whole YCC format.

I would welcome a review of the YCC program focusing on (1) are the original policies of the event cycle still either relevant or preferable? (2) assuming we like the concept how can we tweak it to make it better?

We need to be realistic and understand that the answers are likely not to be the same across the whole country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick McDonald

As the Youth Coordinator for the OCA and the organizer of the OYCC, I would vehemently oppose the raising of the YCC fees. This will reduce the amount I can offer to the winners and top finishers of each section as bursaries to get them to the CYCC. The funds still go to the Youth fund in the form of more players attending the CYCC.
In fact, I believe we need to take another look at the whole YCC format.

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What would you change about the YCC format?

I do not support raising the youth membership fees to the same level as adult fees. Not all children come from affluent backgrounds. We should make chess affordable and accessible for children from working class backgrounds. Fifty cents does not recoup the cost in labour of rating junior only tournaments. I would support raising the fee to a dollar.

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Originally Posted by Ken Craft

I do not support raising the youth membership fees to the same level as adult fees. Not all children come from affluent backgrounds. We should make chess affordable and accessible for children from working class backgrounds. Fifty cents does not recoup the cost in labour of rating junior only tournaments. I would support raising the fee to a dollar.

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I tend to agree with you however it should be noted that it is possible for children to play CFC chess against other children without becoming a member.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir Drkulec

I like to submit motions to increase our revenues as follows:

Increase Jr. membership fees to match adult membership fees.
Increase Jt. Rating fees from $0.50 to $1.00
Increase YCC qualifiers fees to $5 per player, and $2 of this go to general revenues

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Undriadi, please confirm whether I am reading the above correctly. You are proposing:
1) To increase the Jr. membership fees, the increased amount will all go to the general fund. not the Junior Fund,
2) To increase the Jr. Rating fees , the increased amount will all go to the general fund. not the Junior Fund,
3) To increase YCC qualifiers fees from $1.5 to $5 per player. Out of the $3.5 increase, $1.5 will go to the Junior Fund, $2 will go to the general fund.

The above proposal's main purpose is to increase revenue for the general fund, not the Junior Fund. Is that so?

The CFC office is under-staffed. I think everyone agrees with that.
The 50 cent junior rating fee is unrealistic.
Therefore, it seems obvious to me where any extra revenue should be spent.
Regarding the annual membership fees, I'd like to see a discount for first-time CFC members.
There's a bit of sticker shock when a new, unrated player finds out that in addition to a $60-$90 entry fee, there's a $38 (BC) membership charge.

I have the following questions:

1) How much are the estimated increase in revenue for each category of the proposed increase fees:
a) Jr. membership fees,
b) Jr. Rating fees,
c) YCC qualifiers fees.

2) Undriadi stated in the proposal that "With the extra money we can do more things." Can we have a more detail elaboration on what kind of "more things" and the estimated cost of doing those "more things".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Paul Leblanc

The CFC office is under-staffed. I think everyone agrees with that.

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Do we have plan to hire more staff(s) for the CFC office. If yes, what is plan and the estimated cost?

If CFC is in need for more revenue (awaiting for the financial report), why all the proposed increase revenue comes from the juniors?

Michael

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Lo

I have the following questions:

1) How much are the estimated increase in revenue for each category of the proposed increase fees:
a) Jr. membership fees,
b) Jr. Rating fees,
c) YCC qualifiers fees.

2) Undriadi stated in the proposal that "With the extra money we can do more things." Can we have a more detail elaboration on what kind of "more things" and the estimated cost of doing those "more things".



Do we have plan to hire more staff(s) for the CFC office. If yes, what is plan and the estimated cost?

If CFC is in need for more revenue (awaiting for the financial report), why all the proposed increase revenue comes from the juniors?

Michael

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If we go with the gomembership website/payment system/membership application our costs will go up though it will mean that if we continue to grow we will be able to avoid hiring more staff. For the most part juniors do not have to pay for memberships unless they play with adults or in national championships or international competitions where they represent the CFC.

Any increases in YCC fees would go directly back into youth chess as far as I'm concerned. I don't think $5 is necessary but I think an increase to $2.00 plus a $1.00 rating fee might be in order. I am not the one advocating for the increase. I am undecided on the necessity particularly if we can keep growing our numbers.

I thought we have discussed increasing membership fees and rating fees in the Youth Committee forum.
We can revisit that again.
I was not aware about the three weeks notice.

Some of CFC Executives and VM concern about increasing Jr membership fees $1/per month might impact participants.
Look at how much money parents spend on activities for their kids. They will not even feel the increase. The extra money in Youth Funds can be used to support many other youth events. More money more choices.

Hopefully we can discuss this further in YouthCommittee forum and submit it on time for AGM.

Thanks,

Undriadi Benggawan

I am worried about the increase in the annual fee for juniors will negatively affect children from low socio-economic backgrounds. Not all parents are affluent. I will not support a motion that would charge junior and adult members the same annual fee.

http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/sh...imated-Revenue

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Undriadi Benggawan

I thought we have discussed increasing membership fees and rating fees in the Youth Committee forum.
We can revisit that again.
I was not aware about the three weeks notice.

Some of CFC Executives and VM concern about increasing Jr membership fees $1/per month might impact participants.
Look at how much money parents spend on activities for their kids. They will not even feel the increase. The extra money in Youth Funds can be used to support many other youth events. More money more choices.

Hopefully we can discuss this further in YouthCommittee forum and submit it on time for AGM.

Thanks,

Undriadi Benggawan

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There was an extensive discussion on this topic in the Youth Committee in this thread - http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/sh...imated-Revenue. The discussion was mainly on how to increase revenue to the Junior Fund to support junior events (at least that is my feeling). Increasing all aspect of junior fees and almost all extra revenue goes to the regular fund totally deviate from the discussion in the Youth Committee. We definitely need to discuss this again in the Youth Committee.

It appears that based on the changes in the NFP act the board of directors set membership fees. I know for a fact that it used to be the job of the voting members. The youth committee cannot set fees and I don't think that membership fees should go to the youth fund. There should be some reduction in youth fees versus adult fees to take into account the fact that some people can't afford to pay increased fees. I also don't think that any fees associated with WYCC/WCCC/CYCC should go anywhere but the youth fund. The financials look healthy so I am not sure that we really need any big increase in fees though it might be prudent to put in an escalator for inflation. We are still discussing what the reserve should be in 2017 - 2018 for the Olympiad. I think the consensus is at least $10k to 12k.

Undriadi,
Could you please inform Voting Members about coming International Youth events and selection procedure for these events?

I don't think it's been suggested that the Youth Committee should have power to set fees and I for one would oppose that. I'd be happy to listen to their recommendations and take their input very seriously but the national Executive and the Assembly are the CFC's legislative bodies (for different issues).

I agree with Vlad that WYCC/CYCC funds should stay with that program.

I would DEFINITELY welcome a list of major national and international youth events linked to the top of the CFC home page. I really like what the USCF (uschess.org) does with their 'announcements' block though I would prefer ours higher on the page than that.

Their current announcement block covers
US Chess Transgender Policy »
US Chess Announces World Cadet Qualifiers [UPDATED] »
World Youth Qualifiers Announced [UPDATED] »
2018 Pan-American Junior, June 19-24 in Ecuador »

which I think is what Michael is talking about.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir Drkulec

It appears that based on the changes in the NFP act the board of directors set membership fees. I know for a fact that it used to be the job of the voting members. The youth committee cannot set fees and I don't think that membership fees should go to the youth fund. There should be some reduction in youth fees versus adult fees to take into account the fact that some people can't afford to pay increased fees. I also don't think that any fees associated with WYCC/WCCC/CYCC should go anywhere but the youth fund. The financials look healthy so I am not sure that we really need any big increase in fees though it might be prudent to put in an escalator for inflation. We are still discussing what the reserve should be in 2017 - 2018 for the Olympiad. I think the consensus is at least $10k to 12k.

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We could move a motion at the next AGM to transfer that back the Voting Members.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pierre Dénommée

We could move a motion at the next AGM to transfer that back the Voting Members.

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It would require a constitutional amendment meaning a two thirds majority. I am not sure why the government changed the law but it would also mean that we are passing something which contradicts the NFP act. One of the duties of the directors is to make sure that we do nothing which contravenes the act. I need to read the act again to familiarize myself with the changes that have happened in 2018.

I don't think that membership fees should go up except in lockstep with inflation though I would be okay (after consulting with a number of parents who voiced no objections) with some increase in youth membership fees and rating fees. It makes sense that the directors who are required to manage the financial situation have control of the levers of that financial situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyle Craver

I don't think it's been suggested that the Youth Committee should have power to set fees and I for one would oppose that. I'd be happy to listen to their recommendations and take their input very seriously but the national Executive and the Assembly are the CFC's legislative bodies (for different issues).

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You're right, Lyle - it's never been suggested that the Youth Committee should have power to set fees.
Youth Committee should discuss all matters related to youth chess in Canada and prepare Motions and recommendations for the national Executive and the Assembly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyle Craver

I would DEFINITELY welcome a list of major national and international youth events linked to the top of the CFC home page. I really like what the USCF (uschess.org) does with their 'announcements' block though I would prefer ours higher on the page than that.

Their current announcement block covers
US Chess Transgender Policy »
US Chess Announces World Cadet Qualifiers [UPDATED] »
World Youth Qualifiers Announced [UPDATED] »
2018 Pan-American Junior, June 19-24 in Ecuador »

which I think is what Michael is talking about.

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In fact, I was talking about Youth Coordinator Report.
Sorry, if I missed it.
The Assembly needs to know:
What's going on in Canadian youth chess?

In particular, the registration for 2018 Pan-American Junior, June 19-24 in Ecuador should be closed by this time.
Who will represent Canada there?
How players were selected?
We already discussed such issues previously, and decided that it should be a transparent process.
Unfortunately, the lack of information - still is the main problem of Canadian youth chess. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir Drkulec

It would require a constitutional amendment meaning a two thirds majority. I am not sure why the government changed the law but it would also mean that we are passing something which contradicts the NFP act. One of the duties of the directors is to make sure that we do nothing which contravenes the act. I need to read the act again to familiarize myself with the changes that have happened in 2018.

I don't think that membership fees should go up except in lockstep with inflation though I would be okay (after consulting with a number of parents who voiced no objections) with some increase in youth membership fees and rating fees. It makes sense that the directors who are required to manage the financial situation have control of the levers of that financial situation.

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I have only found this in the NFP Act.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NFP Act

Conditions of membership

154 (1) The by-laws shall set out the conditions required for being a member of the corporation, including whether a corporation or other entity may be a member.
Member approval

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The conditions includes the fee. Contrary to the Article of Incorporation, by default, the By-Laws requires only a simple majority unless I missed something.

If the conditions included the fees then there would not be the separate clause in the NFP act which I cited previously assigning the ability to set membership fees to the directors.

The bylaws do not set out the fees and it would be ludicrous to make the fees part of the bylaws because that would mean that every time we wanted to change them we would have to remit a significant fee to the government to do so.

As you wrote

Annual contributions or dues
30 Subject to the articles, the by-laws and any unanimous member agreement, the directors may require members to make an annual contribution or pay annual dues and may determine the manner in which the contribution is to be made or the dues are to be paid.

The power of the Directors is subject to the Articles of Incorporation (filed in Ottawa and costly to change) and to the By-Laws which are not approved by Ottawa and free to change.

I have to disagree with my friend Patrick. Cost increases can be passed on to the customer in the entry fee.

In general, I believe the youth portfolio is growing and kids have many more international options than ever. The youth fees are a bargain and we should not be shy (thank you Les) about increasing the revenues where we can because the requests for funding are constantly increasing. The YCC fees are lower than the CMA Chess Challenge Provincials.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hal Bond

I have to disagree with my friend Patrick. Cost increases can be passed on to the customer in the entry fee.

In general, I believe the youth portfolio is growing and kids have many more international options than ever. The youth fees are a bargain and we should not be shy (thank you Les) about increasing the revenues where we can because the requests for funding are constantly increasing. The YCC fees are lower than the CMA Chess Challenge Provincials.

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Another perhaps interesting cost comparison: today, in Montreal, Chess'n'Math (CMA) is running a CYCC Qualifier, for this year's CYCC, which is in the same province.

The onsite registration fee is $75.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michael Barron

You're right, Lyle - it's never been suggested that the Youth Committee should have power to set fees.
Youth Committee should discuss all matters related to youth chess in Canada and prepare Motions and recommendations for the national Executive and the Assembly.

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Again they cannot prepare motions unless someone in the Executive (ie the president) is remiss in their duties.

Quote:

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In fact, I was talking about Youth Coordinator Report.
Sorry, if I missed it.
The Assembly needs to know:
What's going on in Canadian youth chess?

In particular, the registration for 2018 Pan-American Junior, June 19-24 in Ecuador should be closed by this time.

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Quite a bit is going on in Canadian youth chess. With regard to the Pan-Am junior registration, it was closed some time ago. I believe our deadline was May 1st. There was some interest by one individual to register after the deadline but it turned out that the flight tickets had become too expensive on short notice.

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Who will represent Canada there?
How players were selected?

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http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/sh...ction-Criteria

Quote:

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We already discussed such issues previously, and decided that it should be a transparent process.
Unfortunately, the lack of information - still is the main problem of Canadian youth chess. :(

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Thank you, Vladimir, for your response!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir Drkulec

Again they cannot prepare motions unless someone in the Executive (ie the president) is remiss in their duties.

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If Saskatchewan Association can prepare motions, why CFC Youth Committee can't?
Could you please clarify:
who could prepare motions? :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir Drkulec

Quite a bit is going on in Canadian youth chess. With regard to the Pan-Am junior registration, it was closed some time ago. I believe our deadline was May 1st. There was some interest by one individual to register after the deadline but it turned out that the flight tickets had become too expensive on short notice.

http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/sh...ction-Criteria

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This link is for April's post with announcement of upcoming PanAm 2018 in Santiago Chile between July 21st-July 29th.
It's not the same event as mentioned in this thread 2018 Pan-American Junior, June 19-24 in Ecuador, right?

Anyways, where can we see a list of selected Canadian players for both events?
And Youth Coordinator Report?

I am not aware of any selected players for the 2018 Pan Am Junior. Fide America has a habit of not publicizing events until the last minute. I will let our youth coordinator announce the team for Pan Am Youth Festival.

The Saskatchewan motion was drafted by voting member from Saskatchewan Tom Boshoff and posted by myself. I disagreed with portions of the motion but not enough to decline to post it to the meeting.