2009 Canadian Junior - Nature of the Prize?

Hi Steve:

Both valid points:

Re # 1 - given CFC finances, I do not see CFC giving a blank cheque on any non-covered expenses involved in any World Junior, especially when some are significantly more expensive than others - you cannot budget for the variations. So # 1 has some validity re the champion being reluctant to spend a lot of his/her own money on going. If there was a default of the prize though, maybe a second place finisher, etc. would be willing to spend the extra money to go, and we'd have a participant.

Re # 2 - this also seems valid to me. Education should come first. But if the prize defaulted to the second place finisher, etc., then we might find someone to go.

And re noone going, then what do you thing of the prize going over to increase the following year's Can. Junior prize?

Have you made up your mind if you support the current policy yourself?

Bob

The World Junior starts tomorrow in Argentina, with no Canadian representative this year. As I understand it, Canada has only missed sending someone a few times since it started - add this year to the list - too bad.

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong

Have you made up your mind if you support the current policy yourself?

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Hi Bob:

No, I'm still giving it some thought. I agree that the cost to the CFC should not be an unknown, potentially devasting cost. But Chris Mallon has pointed out that the CFC operates (too much) on a lurching year-to-year basis and the location and presumably the costs of a given World Junior can be predicted and accounted for in a given budget.

It seems to me that the problem is that the CFC is trying to do serve two masters with one lump of money. Is the purpose of the prize $$$ to be for sending a worthy representative to the WJ? Or is it to provide a cash prize to the winner of the CJ? Two different purposes, both acceptable, but potentially very divergent in their aims.

I can understand why having a prize fund is an incentive to juniors, but have to wonder where that attitude came from. I think I would rather have the CFC sending a representative to the WJ rather than paying a bunch of money to some junior and making the tournament little different than the average Weekend Swiss.

Still thinking about it.

Steve

I don't think it was me who most recently mentioned the lurching year to year thing. I'm a little forgetful lately though so might have been.

The answer is quite simply to budget high, and if you get a surplus throw it into the Foundation or the Pugi fund. Say, $2500 a year.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Armstrong

The World Junior starts tomorrow in Argentina, with no Canadian representative this year. As I understand it, Canada has only missed sending someone a few times since it started - add this year to the list - too bad.

Bob

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Gentlemen,

Thank you for discussing Canadian Junior issues!
I would like to provide some facts for your discussion:
Canada was represented only once in the last 5 World Junior Championships:
in 2006 by Bindi Cheng.
In 2007 Leonid Gerzhoy went to the World Junior, but wasn't allowed to represent Canada due to paperwork problems with Federation transfer and had to withdraw after 3 rounds (afterwards FIDE listed him as Canadian in the final crosstable, but I hope you would agree it's not what we mean by Canadian representation).
In 2005 Shiyam Thavandiran,
in 2008 Artiom Samsonkin,
in 2009 Raja Panjwani
- all of them for different reasons were unable to represent Canada at the World Junior.

One of the reasons is CFC's financial problems.
As you understand, $1000 is not enough to cover travel expenses to the World Junior.
Related problem - declining popularity of Canadian Junior. If we could attract more players to participate at the Canadian Junior, we could raise more funds for the trip to the World Junior.
How could we make Canadian Junior more attractive?

Let's not forget - the goal of Chess Federation of Canada is to develop chess in Canada, not in Turkey or Argentina or somewhere else.
It means that success of Canadian Junior is much more important than success of World Junior.
So, the decision was made - to save the Canadian Junior to allow the Canadian Junior Champion to use his prize for any major international tournament. If Canadian Junior Champion decided not to go to the World Junior, second or third place finisher at the Canadian Junior could take his spot at the World Junior, but not his prize.

Canadian Junior Champion 2009 Raja Panjwani decided to use his $1000 prize for participation at the World Junior Championship 2010 - due to his school schedule, and I appreciate his decision.

In conclusion, I would like to remind you that donations to the CFC Junior Program are tax deductable.
If we want Canadian representation at the World Junior Championships every year, please contribute to the CFC Junior Program.

Hi Michael:

You've listed the Can. Junior Champions for the last 5 years:

2005 - Shiyam Thavandiran
2006 - Bindi Cheng
2007 - Leonid Gerzhoy
2008 - Artiom Samsonkin
2009 - Raja Panjwani

The current policy is that " the winner can apply the prize to any major international tournament of his choice other than the World Junior if s/he so chooses ".

When did that policy come in? What was the policy before it was instituted?

Thanks.

Bob

A related question is who made the new policy?

Unfortunately, I know nothing about the old policy.
I asked several times "Where is $1,200 prize for Canadian Junior Champion that Shiyam won in 2005?", but nobody was able to answer this simple question.

The new policy came in after Leonid's fiasco in 2007.
I made this policy - as an organizer of Canadian Junior Championship 2008.
The event was originally planned for January, but got a very low interest - due to problems in 2005 and 2007.
We almost had cancelled it.
But after negotiations with the prospective participants we came up with the new policy - and saved the Canadian Junior!
The event took place in May, and had 20 players - the record for the recent past - thanks to the new policy!

Hope it answers your questions.

Thx to Michael Barron, Youth Coordinator, for the quick answer and the additional facts on the Canadian Junior in the prior post on this topic.

I have a major concern about the current prize policy, despite the fact that Michael indicates that the participants preferred the new policy he developed - that the winner gets to use the prize $$ for any other major international tournament of his/her choice, if not going to the World Junior.

It appears to me that the history of the policy may be:

1. 2005 - Shiyam Thavandiran is Champion, but is not going to the World Junior. He does not get his prize $$. One could surmise that the reason was that at that time the policy was that the prize defaulted to the second place finisher, etc., if they wanted to go to the World Junior for Canada. If no one went, CFC kept the prize $$ as general revenue.

2. 2006 - Bindi Cheng is Champion. He uses his prize to go to the World Junior. We can assume the policy was the same as in 2005.

3. 2007 - Leonid Gerzhoy is Champion. He uses his prize to go to the World Junior ( where there were problems getting his Canadian credentials recognized ). We can assume the policy was the same as in 2005.

4. 2008 - There is definite lack of interest in the Canadian Junior and it is about to be cancelled. Why is this I wonder? I can see that one of the problems of the old policy is that if a junior does not want to spend his/her own money to go to the World Junior, beyond the $$ prize, and organizer room and board, then they might not want to play in the Can. Junior at all, because they know their prize will get defaulted over to the second place finisher, etc.. Michael, as Can.Junior organizer that year, consulted with juniors, and found they would play if he instituted a new policy - that the Champion , if s/he was not going to go to the World Junior, could use the prize $$ for any other major international tournament of their choice. Michael instituted this policy for his 2008 Can. Junior, and he got a good turnout of players. The Champion was Artiom Samsonkin - he did not go to the World Junior, but I assume he used his prize for some other tournament, under the new policy.

5. 2009 - Raja Panjwani is Champion. Like Artiom, he decides to use the prize $$ for a tournament other than this year's October World Junior in Argentina.

My Concern:

I can understand that the participants like the new policy - it gives them surety that they can keep the prize if they win, and they don't have to commit to going to the World Junior to go into the Canadian Junior. So what has happened is that the Canadian Junior has just become a tournament like all other tournaments, where you can play for a significant prize, regardless of whether you have any interest at all in the World Junior. My concern is that yes, the Can. Junior will attract players, but more and more of them will be playing with no intention of going to the World Junior. For most of them, it will just be another strong tournament where they have a chance at a good prize. So less and less often will Canada have a participant in the World Junior! More and more of the winners will be of the type who are not going to go to the World Junior.

The Question - Do we just want a Canadian Junior that draws players, and that just picks a Canadian Champion, and no longer tries to get a candidate for the World Junior??

Comments:

The whole point of the Canadian Junior historically was for Canada to participate in the World Junior. And it did this by having a policy that the prize had to be used to go to the World Junior. And if the Champion wasn't going, then the prize defaulted over to the second place finisher, etc., so that Canada would hopefully be assured or a participant in the World Junior. I fear that the new policy has lost the point of the Canadian Junior. It is not supposed to be just another tournament like any weekend swiss ( as Steve Douglas properly noted in an earlier post ).

My Proposal:

CFC should go back to the policy that the prize has to be used to go to that year's World Junior. If the Champion is not going, then the prize defaults over to the second place finisher, etc.. However, unlike the prior policy, I think that if no one goes one year, the money does NOT go into CFC general revenue ! It is kept in the Canadian Junior account, and is added to the prize fund in the next year's Can. Junior. Also, if it is true that there are fewer juniors willing to play under this policy, then if one year the Can. Junior is cancelled, again the prize goes over to the next year. I would think that would guarantee good participation the next year, with a double prize + room and board expense paid by the organizers of the World Junior.

What do you think of my proposal?

Bob
( P.S. I couldn't find out how to combine a poll with this post - if some one knows, could they do a poll - " Bob Armstrong's new Canadian Junior Policy should be implemented " - Yes/No/I'm unsure. Thanks.)