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View Full Version : Ag. Item # 12 – Discussion of Motion 2010-07 – Amending the CYCC Rules



Bob Armstrong
04-08-2010, 08:23 AM
In this thread, we will debate this motion. But we will not vote on it here in this thread. The voting is not to start ‘til 6:00 PM EDT on Sunday, April 11 – I will at that time post a new thread on this as a poll, so we can all vote – it will record the names of the governors voting.

Here is the motion/commentary:

Motion 2010-07: (Moved/Seconded Michael Barron / John Coleman) To amend the CYCC rules to include the following:

"Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.
Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified for: 1) World Youth Chess Championship; 2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship; 3) North America Youth Chess Championship.

Michael Barron:

Every qualified player can be official Canadian representative at one of these events, others could be additional players. Usually the Champion represents Canada at WYCC, 2nd place finisher - at Pan American, and 3rd place finisher - at NAYCC.
But the Champion could choose any one of these tournaments, and 2nd place finisher - one of remaining 2."
The intent of this motion is to emphasize the importance of CYCC as a qualifier for all
International Youth competitions: WYCC, Pan American YCC and North American YCC, and allow top 3 CYCC finishers to represent Canada at one of these events.

Egidijus Zeromskis
04-08-2010, 09:32 AM
Mover/seconder could add where the amendment will be incorporated in the Handbook (otherwise it might be lost :rolleyes:
The Barron's rationale could be included in the motion: "the Champion could choose any one of these tournaments, the 2nd place finisher - one of remaining 2, the third place finisher - the remaining " or "The Champion has the first choice; the 2nd place finisher - the second choice."

Maybe time terms to make a decision should be mentioned too?

Ken Craft
04-08-2010, 09:36 AM
How does this change and improve on current practice?

Egidijus Zeromskis
04-08-2010, 09:44 AM
How does this change and improve on current practice?
I think it will make more formal selection where and who goes as the official representative.

Who would go if those three players refuse to go into one of the mentioned tournaments? (no official representative, somebody with the highest rating, etc.)

Christopher Mallon
04-08-2010, 09:55 PM
What exactly was the issue that prompted the need for this motion?

Michael Barron
04-08-2010, 11:51 PM
What exactly was the issue that prompted the need for this motion?

The issue that prompted the need for this motion id following:

Many parents are asking:
1) How my child could qualify for Pan-American or North American Youth Championships?
2) Why my child need to play at Canadian Youth Championships, if everybody is allowed to represent Canada at International competitions anyways?

To address such questions and emphasize importance of the CYCC as the only way to qualify to International chess competitions, the CFC Youth Committee submitted this Motion.

Fred McKim
04-09-2010, 01:50 PM
I had to search elsewhere, but I think the following are facts.

The CFC pays transportation for the CYCC winner to go to the WYCC. If they choose not to go, I'm not sure if they presently can use that elsewhere, or if someone else is entitled to use it.

Canada is allowed free accomodation for an OFFICIAL rep at the CYCC, Pan-Ams and NAYCC (which apparently may be held too close to the CYCC to use the same year's event as a qualifier).

I would favour the winner of the CYCC receiving official invitation and airfare to their choice of the Pan ams or World Youth and the runner-up getting the invitation to the alternate event.

The official rep to the NAYCC would be the highest placing finisher from that age group in the CYCC from the previous year. This means it would be only those players not graduating to a new age group would be eligible, but the rlues would be fair and the players would have a year to raise their transportation, etc.

Appropriate acceptance dates would have tot be built in to the system.

John Coleman
04-09-2010, 02:21 PM
A complicating factor is that the Pan-Ams take place before or immediately after the CYCC about half the time. Does this year's winner go, or last year's? A further complication is that the CYCC has 2-year age divisions.

Patrick McDonald
04-09-2010, 05:55 PM
All of these events (WYCC, PanAm YCC, NAYCC) have 2 year age categories.
At this point, the CYCC can only raise enough funds to provide airfare to ONE event for ONE qualifier from the CYCC.
HOWEVER, EACH event provides accommodations/meals to ONE representative from each country for each age/gender category.

the Barron motion is also misleading in that there is no such thing as "Usually the Champion represents Canada at WYCC, 2nd place finisher - at Pan American, and 3rd place finisher - at NAYCC".
USUALLY what happens is that anyone who at least ties for 1st, 2nd or 3rd qualifies to go to the World YCC and the top finisher of those that decides to go has his/her airfare provided by the CFC.
As for the PanAm and the NAYCC, anyone has been allowed to go. The highest rated player in any age/gender category has been the one that has received the accommodations and meals for the event.
ALSO: It has been VERY rare that more than one player from any given age/gender category has ever attended either the Pan Am or the North American.

I am not sure why we need to change this status quo?? So far it has worked out well.

We need to ENCOURAGE our youth players to go to these events, not limit them. I would like to see more of our youth attending the Pan Am and the North American tournaments. To date, we have been represented by 0 - 6 players across all 12 sections at any of these events. (often it has been 0 players at these events).

Christopher Mallon
04-09-2010, 06:10 PM
If there is no need for a limit, then I see no reason to put a limit on.

Or make it a very simple limit which still encourages participation in the CYCC: You must participate in the CYCC if you want to play in one of those three events.

Michael Barron
04-10-2010, 12:02 AM
Dear chess friends,

Thanks to all of you for participating in this discussion!

I would like to clarify:

We need to work on our youth program, because so far it hasn't worked out well enough.
The main problem - declining participation at the CYCC. As result, we can't pay transportation for the CYCC winner to go to the WYCC.

If some of you wasn't aware:
We guarantee only $1000 for winners of at least 8-player sections.
Additional funding depends on additional proceeds from the CYCC.

So, the first goal - to encourage participation at the CYCC.
As Chris said, You must participate in the CYCC if you want to play in one of those three events.

Next problem - low participation at American events.
As Patrick said, we have been represented by 0 - 6 players across all 12 sections at any of these events (often it has been 0 players at these events).
One of the reason - people are not aware of these event.

So, we need to remind people of their existence.

The intent of the Motion - to ENCOURAGE our youth players to go to these events, not limit them.

The Motion says only about OFFICIAL rep at the CYCC, Pan-Ams and NAYCC - 3 top finishers in every section.
As an additional player at Pan-Ams and NAYCC could participate any CYCC player.

Hope this clarify the situation.

Bob Armstrong
04-10-2010, 12:16 AM
Hi Michael:

Am I correct in understanding that what this motion does is effectively increase the prizes at the CYCC, by making it that the representatives to the WYCC, Pan-American YCC, and the North American YCC will be the winners of the CYCC now?

If so, that seems like a good thing to me, to promote attendance at the CYCC - it will be a more attractive tournament. And this motion does not in any way prevent other juniors from deciding to attend any one of these tournaments on their own - they simply won't be the " official " Canadian Representative?

Also, Patrick has asked what system will be used in the case of a tie-break being necessary in awarding any of these three prizes? I take it this motion does not speak to that. Is there a current policy on this? Or is this a matter that will be decided in future by the Youth Committee?

Bob

Patrick McDonald
04-10-2010, 10:35 AM
Here is the motion:

Motion 2010-07: (Moved/Seconded Michael Barron / John Coleman) To amend the CYCC rules to include the following:

"Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.
Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified for: 1) World Youth Chess Championship; 2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship; 3) North America Youth Chess Championship.


I am concerned over the wording perhaps ... As for the WYCC, I am fine with this.
As for the NAYCC and the PanAm, I am concerned in that this will effectively LIMIT the participation in these events.
I agree that they need to be mentioned, but limiting participation to the top 3 finishers in the CYCC will cut out a lot of the participation in these events. In the past, many if not most of the participants that have traveled to these events have been OTHER than the top 3 participants in the CYCC.
I will agree, however, that it would be a good idea to make participation in the CYCC a pre-requisite. The problem with this, though, is which CYCC will they have to have participated in ... esp. for an international tournament that happens to occur within perhaps a month of the CYCC. (Even if it is a week or two -3? 4? - after the CYCC, this is a huge travel burdon on the families of the participants) (For example, I know that a couple of years ago, there was great participation - relatively - in the NAYCC from B.C., and if they would have had to go to both the CYCC AND the NAYCC, this would have effectively doubled their costs over a short period of time)

Christopher Mallon
04-10-2010, 10:45 AM
Require participation in a CYCC within the past 18 months before the start of the event they wish to play in, perhaps?

Michael Barron
04-10-2010, 11:51 PM
Hi Michael:

Am I correct in understanding that what this motion does is effectively increase the prizes at the CYCC, by making it that the representatives to the WYCC, Pan-American YCC, and the North American YCC will be the winners of the CYCC now?

If so, that seems like a good thing to me, to promote attendance at the CYCC - it will be a more attractive tournament. And this motion does not in any way prevent other juniors from deciding to attend any one of these tournaments on their own - they simply won't be the " official " Canadian Representative?

Also, Patrick has asked what system will be used in the case of a tie-break being necessary in awarding any of these three prizes? I take it this motion does not speak to that. Is there a current policy on this? Or is this a matter that will be decided in future by the Youth Committee?

Bob

Hi Bob:

Thank you for good questions!

Yes, this motion effectively increases the number of prizes at the CYCC - there will be 3 prizes per section instead of one.

Yes, this motion does not in any way prevent other juniors from deciding to attend the Pan-American YCC and North American YCC on their own.
As for the WYCC - the current rule, which allow top 3 finishers per section to attend the WYCC, still will be in force.

Yes, this motion does not speak to a tie-break system being necessary in awarding top three prizes - it's authoirity of the CYCC organizers.
In a rare case, when all 3 prize winner will decline to participate in one of the tournaments, and 2 players tied at the CYCC for fourth or lower place are willing to participate, the CFC Youth Committee will decide who will be the official Canadian Representative.

Patrick McDonald
04-12-2010, 12:23 AM
Yes, this motion effectively increases the number of prizes at the CYCC - there will be 3 prizes per section instead of one.


I don't see where the extra prizes are??
Are you saying that airfare will be provided now to the NAYCC and the Pan Ams as it is to the WYCC??

HOW CAN the CFC afford this?? the Prize to the WYCC has already been cut back from full airfare to just $1000 per age/gender section!

If the airfare is NOT being provided, how is this an additional prize as anyone can attend these events? (If one of the top 3 don't attend these events, then someone else will receive the accommodations as the official rep from Canada for that age/gender section.)

WHERE IS THE ADDITIONAL PRIZE??

Michael, I am sorry, but I fail to see your logic?

Bob Armstrong
04-12-2010, 06:24 AM
Hi Patrick:

Michael is best to answer you. But since he was responding to my earlier questions, here is what I understand now.

Before, who would represent Canada as the " Official Can. Rep ( = accomodation prize ) " at the Pan-American YCC or the North American YCC, was not spelled out anywhere. You could come second at the CYCC, and there was no assurance you would be the one to get the official accomodation prize for either of these tournaments. So what is the " new prize " is that under this motion, if you come second or third at the CYCC, you are guaranteed the " official Can. rep. " title for these tournaments.

However, IF one of the top three don't want to attend the tournament available to them, then the " official representative " prize will pass to the next winner ( fourth place finisher ). Should there be a tie for fourth in such a case, then the Youth Committee will break the tie.

I'm not sure, but I think if Can. still doesn't have a rep. after this system, then the " prize " of " official Can. rep. " will get assigned by the Youth Committee.

I fear to get in between Youth Coordinators here, when I am not directly involved, but if I have somehow got this wrong, please correct me.

Bob

Egidijus Zeromskis
04-12-2010, 08:40 PM
After re-reading all explanations, I think, the wording of the motion is misleading.
"Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions" - if you wanna go outside Canada, you must play in the CYCC, and it is a good intention to promote internal championships. However, "Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified for: 1) World Youth Chess Championship; 2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship; 3) North America Youth Chess Championship." - strictly reading, only three players per section can satisfy the first and the second sentences. However, movers intention were different (M.B.: "Yes, this motion does not in any way prevent other juniors from deciding to attend the Pan-American YCC and North American YCC on their own.")

Thus, I think, there is a need to add "are qualified to become official representatives for:"

Could a mover/seconder confirm/deny this?

Michael Barron
04-12-2010, 09:39 PM
After re-reading all explanations, I think, the wording of the motion is misleading.
"Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions" - if you wanna go outside Canada, you must play in the CYCC, and it is a good intention to promote internal championships. However, "Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified for: 1) World Youth Chess Championship; 2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship; 3) North America Youth Chess Championship." - strictly reading, only three players per section can satisfy the first and the second sentences. However, movers intention were different (M.B.: "Yes, this motion does not in any way prevent other juniors from deciding to attend the Pan-American YCC and North American YCC on their own.")

Thus, I think, there is a need to add "are qualified to become official representatives for:"

Could a mover/seconder confirm/deny this?

Yes, Egis, you are correct.

I would like to thank you and everybody else who discussed this Motion and helped make it more clear, and want to propose the amended version for the vote:

"Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.
Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:
1) World Youth Chess Championship;
2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;
3) North American Youth Chess Championship."

John,
Are you agree with this amended version?

In addition, I would like to clarify a few points:
1) The Motion 2010-07 can't address ALL issues related to CYCC - I believe, we could discuss and resolve them one by one.
2) There is a difference between official representative and additional player. The right to represent Canada is a PRIZE which could be won at the CYCC.
3) Who will pay the airfare - it's a separate issue, not covered by the Motion 2010-07. We could discuss it separately.

Patrick McDonald
04-12-2010, 11:47 PM
I can agree that players have to play in the CYCC to be "qualified" to represent Canada at these events.

BUT: I believe that for the NAYCC and the Pan Am, it should be something like: Players must have played in the previous CYCC in order to attend the NAYCC or the Pan Am. In circumstances where more than one player from any given age/gender section wishes to attend, the status of Official representative (the one that receives the Accommodations) will be the one that scores the highest in the respective CYCC.

If this is what you are after, than this is what should be stated.

Garvin Nunes
04-13-2010, 07:24 PM
I agree with the basic sentiment Michael Barron is expressing with the introduction of this motion. Namely, that the winner of the CYCC can be Canada's official representative at the three International Youth Competitions mentioned.

But it must be made clear that sometimes its this year's CYCC and sometime's its last year's (depending on the date of the international event.)

It also needs to be made clear that other Canadian youth can still enter these events just not as the official representative.

The wording of the motion does indeed say "..Top 3 finishers in each section qualified for.." which is not exactly the sentiment Mr. Barron expressed in this thread.

John Coleman
04-13-2010, 10:10 PM
amended version for the vote:

"Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.
Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:
1) World Youth Chess Championship;
2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;
3) North American Youth Chess Championship."

John,
Are you agree with this amended version?



I agree with the amended version

Christopher Mallon
04-13-2010, 10:35 PM
I'd word it slightly differently, like:

Canadian Youth Chess Championship is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.
Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives as follows:
1st) World Youth Chess Championship;
2nd) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;
3rd) North American Youth Chess Championship.


I still think something should go in there that any CYCC participant may become the Official Rep of Canada at one of these events if nobody higher-finishing is playing in their section.

Bob Armstrong
04-14-2010, 06:03 PM
The motion attempts to increase the stature of the CYCC by increasing the prizes it offers. Others felt the system needed more flexibility, especially given juniors sometime changing age groups between the time of a CYCC, and the Pan-American YCC or the North American YCC. Some wanted the Handbook to refer to the fact that non-winner juniors could also attend these events, even if not “ Official Can. Representatives “.

Is this summary generally satisfactory?

Bob