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View Full Version : 6A6A Bids for all Canadian Closed 2019 - 2022 in Kingston by Aris Marghetis



Vladimir Drkulec
12-16-2018, 11:49 AM
We have received a bid for the Canadian Closed and Canadian Women's Closed for 2019 through 2022 (four years in total) from Kingston organized by Aris Marghetis. The bid arose out of the contacts which we forwarded to Aris after the 2018 Canadian Sports Tourism Alliance conference in Halifax last March. The executive have reviewed the bid with five of the seven so far voting in favour with none opposed. I can remember the pain of trying to get people to organize this tournament at the last minute and am excited that we will secure certainty for four years in this area at least.

Pierre Dénommée
12-16-2018, 02:29 PM
Thank you Aris! This is a great news for Canadian Chess. My only regret is that, in order to remain an active IA, I was planning to work in one of those. If we can get the peace of mind for 4 years, I see no reason to bid because I cannot offer anything better.

The needs of the many, all the elite chess players of Canada, outweigh the need of the few, my need to remain active.

Aris Marghetis
12-16-2018, 02:54 PM
Thank you Aris! This is a great news for Canadian Chess. My only regret is that, in order to remain an active IA, I was planning to work in one of those. If we can get the peace of mind for 4 years, I see no reason to bid because I cannot offer anything better.

The needs of the many, all the elite chess players of Canada, outweigh the need of the few, my need to remain active.

Thank you for the kind words Pierre!

We have asked Danny Goldenberg to be our Chief Arbiter, and we are delighted that he has accepted.

Pierre Dénommée
12-16-2018, 06:41 PM
Thank you for the kind words Pierre!

We have asked Danny Goldenberg to be our Chief Arbiter, and we are delighted that he has accepted.

Excellent choice! I gave him one of his IA norm.

Nikolay Noritsyn
12-18-2018, 05:53 PM
It seems to me, there wont be a vote by the voting members on this bid? Is it possible to see the bid details, ie prize fund, location, conditions for IMs/GMs (are CFC handbook laws being followed this time?)

Fred McKim
12-18-2018, 07:01 PM
It seems to me, there wont be a vote by the voting members on this bid? Is it possible to see the bid details, ie prize fund, location, conditions for IMs/GMs (are CFC handbook laws being followed this time?)

The Board of Directors voted on this bid. You have to realize that any bid presented within a year of the event has to be considered as "emergency measures". I'm sure Vlad or Aris can share bid details prior to the end of the meeting. There are still a couple of minor points Aris is working on. As you know the CFC Handbook rules on the Canadian Closed are now only a guideline, and bids aren't obliged to follow them.

Vladimir Drkulec
12-18-2018, 10:16 PM
Here is the original bid which is not finalized to reflect the discussions we have had and perhaps some tweaks to come. We already have a commitment from the organizer, Aris Marghetis, to delay the first deadline for entry fees as it was set to kick in January 1st.

Aris Marghetis
12-18-2018, 10:31 PM
Here is the bid which is not finalized. We already have a commitment from Aris Marghetis to delay the first deadline for entry fees as it was set to kick in January 1st.

We sincerely welcome any questions or concerns! I will respond here ASAP, and I am sure that most feedback will result in improvements to the bid. The main point is that we secured an INCREDIBLE hotel situation; as to room rate, free underground parking, breakfast included, serviced/licensed skittles area, indoor pool/fitness, etc.

Vladimir Drkulec
12-18-2018, 10:47 PM
Many of the amenities and favourable hotel situation arose out of contacts made at the Halifax CSTA (Canadian Sports Tourism Alliance) conference last March which were passed on to Aris. I believe that we should take part in the conference this year again in Ottawa as last year's participation has already certainly more than paid off in 2018.

Egidijus Zeromskis
12-18-2018, 10:51 PM
We sincerely welcome any questions or concerns!

Aris, I had these concerns and questions:

I'm trying to understand the hotel deal: "DISCOUNT all-taxes-in double occupancy rate of $65".

To be a good deal, this should be a room price, right? What type of rooms will be offered by hotel for this rate? [ hotel link https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ygkfp-four-points-kingston/ ] How many of them will be available to chess players? Who will manage sorting into double-rooms? It's an individual championship, not a team of two :)

imho, it might be great for a weekend open. The Closed (Zonal) with 4 days of double rounds will be tough for players. Hopefully they will by-pass playoffs this time.

Out of curiosity - was a schedule of Wed (r1) Thur (r2-3), Fri (r4-5), Sat (r6), Sun (r7-8), Mon (r9) considered? With Monday two rounds and potential playoffs someone might need to stay one day anyway.

Aris Marghetis
12-18-2018, 11:44 PM
Aris, I had these concerns and questions:

I'm trying to understand the hotel deal: "DISCOUNT all-taxes-in double occupancy rate of $65".

To be a good deal, this should be a room price, right? What type of rooms will be offered by hotel for this rate? [ hotel link https://www.marriott.com/hotels/travel/ygkfp-four-points-kingston/ ] How many of them will be available to chess players? Who will manage sorting into double-rooms? It's an individual championship, not a team of two :)

imho, it might be great for a weekend open. The Closed (Zonal) with 4 days of double rounds will be tough for players. Hopefully they will by-pass playoffs this time.

Out of curiosity - was a schedule of Wed (r1) Thur (r2-3), Fri (r4-5), Sat (r6), Sun (r7-8), Mon (r9) considered? With Monday two rounds and potential playoffs someone might need to stay one day anyway.

Thanks Egis, here are my initial responses. I am open to re-feedback:

1) room rate: The hotel deal, with regular tax and hotel tax, with free parking and free breakfast, works out to $130 per night for two beds. This is insanely low for a downtown hotel in a city like this. Just parking and breakfast are normally dozens of extra dollars. We have 50 double rooms blocked so far, and we have been told that if registrations are better than that, then we can have more (that will be a GOOD problem, as they WANT to fill up). To get these rates, players will book their hotel rooms as part of their tournament registration. Any two players can tell us they want to room together. Some people will choose a room alone (or choose a room with a non-playing co-guest). This method of room commitment (registering for the room along with the tournament registration) is required in order to meet criteria for a separate agreement that we have with Kingston Tourism. Players who stay at that hotel will pay less to play than players who do not stay at that hotel.

2) weekend open vs. Closed (Zonal): We're quite excited that this will be BOTH! If you read the details, the top section (strictly rating-restricted) will serve as the Closed (Zonal), and the other sections will hopefully be remembered as the best super weekend open of the year! Like when else can an 1800 play 9 rounds?!

3) your schedule curiosity: There are many people who get Good Friday off of work. Some of them also get Easter Monday off. So with our proposed schedule, some people will miss ZERO days of work to attend. And those that need to take Easter Monday off, well most companies are very amenable to that day as a day off. At first glance, your proposal above would cost an extra day off work (Thursday) and an extra night of hotel. To be frank, I think those issues would be deal-breakers.

Thanks again, best regards, Aris.

Nikolay Noritsyn
12-19-2018, 12:50 AM
Just a few points, going from major to minor.

With all due respect..this seems impossible.
http://chess.ca/crosstable?tournament_check_number=201707008&key=181219 last Zonal as an example. Out of 29 players, I count 9 that are not Montreal based. These trips, even for 5 days, are quite expensive.
Here is the biggest recent Kingston tournament I found. http://chess.ca/crosstable?tournament_check_number=201803094&key=181219
I don't see how Kingston can hope to attract 100 paying players (with 30 Zonal players - zero locals in Kingston). I am not sure why an 1800 would be excited to play 9 rounds, either.

If I remember correctly, prizes in Montreal were similar, but were not based on 100 paying players (so what benefits does the 2018 Canadian Sports Tourism Alliance provide.. hotel deals?)

Also, I think its great to have the Canadian Championship more often (once a year), but with the low projected prize fund + non chess location, I can't see how it will be attractive for top players to participate. That would devalue the title.

- US$1000 for Appeals Committee Chair, $2600: Arbiter fees (wow, on both accounts.)
-GM = free entry & double occupancy room (by March 31st) (it seems the 'handbook guideline' is being followed this time - why?)

- Anti-cheating - I was unable to find it on the internet right now, but I am pretty sure FIDE asks for certain procedures to be followed at the official FIDE events (I assume a Zonal is such) for anti-cheating purposes. Metal detectors, etc.

- Computer tiebreak instead of playoffs. Personally, not a fan.

Aris Marghetis
12-19-2018, 02:07 AM
Just a few points, going from major to minor.

With all due respect..this seems impossible.
http://chess.ca/crosstable?tournament_check_number=201707008&key=181219 last Zonal as an example. Out of 29 players, I count 9 that are not Montreal based. These trips, even for 5 days, are quite expensive.
Here is the biggest recent Kingston tournament I found. http://chess.ca/crosstable?tournament_check_number=201803094&key=181219
I don't see how Kingston can hope to attract 100 paying players (with 30 Zonal players - zero locals in Kingston). I am not sure why an 1800 would be excited to play 9 rounds, either.

If I remember correctly, prizes in Montreal were similar, but were not based on 100 paying players (so what benefits does the 2018 Canadian Sports Tourism Alliance provide.. hotel deals?)

Also, I think its great to have the Canadian Championship more often (once a year), but with the low projected prize fund + non chess location, I can't see how it will be attractive for top players to participate. That would devalue the title.

- US$1000 for Appeals Committee Chair, $2600: Arbiter fees (wow, on both accounts.)
-GM = free entry & double occupancy room (by March 31st) (it seems the 'handbook guideline' is being followed this time - why?)

- Anti-cheating - I was unable to find it on the internet right now, but I am pretty sure FIDE asks for certain procedures to be followed at the official FIDE events (I assume a Zonal is such) for anti-cheating purposes. Metal detectors, etc.

- Computer tiebreak instead of playoffs. Personally, not a fan.

Thanks Nikolay, here's my initial responses:

1) viability: We're sure gonna find out! I don't see how this can be compared to Montreal, when we're starting with decent MINIMUM prizes PER SECTION. These numbers are very conservatively based on 100 players who sign up for the earliest registration deadline. We hope to announce increased prize funds as registrations get going. In addition, most players from the non-Zonal section will hopefully be attracted by an appealing "chess-cation". Elite players like yourself heed financial aspects more. But here's the thing, as the "regular" sections swell, that will give us the resources to further improve the Zonal conditions, which in turn attracts, etc.

2) costs: The Appeals Committee Chair amount is mandated by FIDE. And then seriously, you're wowing $2600 in fees for Arbiters to cover 900 player-rounds?!

3) GM conditions: I don't get your point here. Are you complaining that we're offering GMs free entry & double occupancy room? We just think it's the right thing!

4) anti-cheating: This will of course be planned appropriately. We didn't immediately see the need for detailed inclusion within the bid. It just has to work onsite.

We sure hope to see you there, you're one of the top guys period!

Thank you, and best regards, Aris.

Victor Plotkin
12-19-2018, 07:33 AM
Generally, I like the bid. Just a couple of points:

1. With the huge deterioration of Canadian Open in last 10 years, Canadian Closed (combined with sections) has a chance to be the major Canadian tournament. I like it.

2. I like the idea of having the Closed once a year. We should think about Olympiad spot for the winner. For the next campaign - should it be 2019 or 2020 champion? Players have to know it before the start of 2019 championship.

3. 9 rounds in 5 days is a very busy schedule, but I understand Aris's approach.

4. Free entry for IMs and free accommodation for GMs - great! Let's follow our rules.

5. Unfortunately, World Senior Team Championship is scheduled for the same time (Apr 15- Apr 25, 2019 in Greece). in 2018, Canadian Team was Cummings-Plotkin-Findlay-Barron.

6. What will be the hotel price for single occupancy? 130 CAD?

Nikolay Noritsyn
12-19-2018, 11:35 AM
Thanks Nikolay, here's my initial responses:

1) viability: We're sure gonna find out! I don't see how this can be compared to Montreal, when we're starting with decent MINIMUM prizes PER SECTION. These numbers are very conservatively based on 100 players who sign up for the earliest registration deadline. We hope to announce increased prize funds as registrations get going. In addition, most players from the non-Zonal section will hopefully be attracted by an appealing "chess-cation". Elite players like yourself heed financial aspects more. But here's the thing, as the "regular" sections swell, that will give us the resources to further improve the Zonal conditions, which in turn attracts, etc.

2) costs: The Appeals Committee Chair amount is mandated by FIDE. And then seriously, you're wowing $2600 in fees for Arbiters to cover 900 player-rounds?!

3) GM conditions: I don't get your point here. Are you complaining that we're offering GMs free entry & double occupancy room? We just think it's the right thing!

4) anti-cheating: This will of course be planned appropriately. We didn't immediately see the need for detailed inclusion within the bid. It just has to work onsite.

We sure hope to see you there, you're one of the top guys period!

Thank you, and best regards, Aris.

1. As a player, as long as prizes and conditions are guaranteed (are they?), I would be interested to play simply because of the Canadian Champion title. As someone reviewing the bid, I am skeptic about 100 registrations being conservative. Good luck to you, I do hope you can pull it off.

2. Of course. I may be comparing it to how much CFC pays coaches at world youth, etc. over 9+ rounds, or comparing it to the projected prize fund.

3. I don't have a personal unbiased opinion about the matter. I like when rules are being followed though, just wondering why its selective. Simply going through the expenses.

Pierre Dénommée
12-19-2018, 01:08 PM
Here are the anti-cheating rules from the latest FIDE AGM http://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2018/FIDE_NEWS/Congress/Annexes/Annex_24.pdf but the rules fail to indicate the date they will enter into effect.

Easter period is not the usual holiday, it is the most sacred religious day for both protestant and catholic. As such. you should expect that any player with a strong religious belief will refuse to play on those dates. Everyday, from Thursday to Sunday, there are daily religious services. This is why I prefer the December 26 to 30 time slot. The majority is truly in vacation during this period and there is no religious obligation of any kind.

Two rounds and tiebreaks on the same day will be a lot of work, both players and arbiters could be exhausted.

Aris Marghetis
12-19-2018, 06:46 PM
Generally, I like the bid. Just a couple of points:

1. With the huge deterioration of Canadian Open in last 10 years, Canadian Closed (combined with sections) has a chance to be the major Canadian tournament. I like it.

2. I like the idea of having the Closed once a year. We should think about Olympiad spot for the winner. For the next campaign - should it be 2019 or 2020 champion? Players have to know it before the start of 2019 championship.

3. 9 rounds in 5 days is a very busy schedule, but I understand Aris's approach.

4. Free entry for IMs and free accommodation for GMs - great! Let's follow our rules.

5. Unfortunately, World Senior Team Championship is scheduled for the same time (Apr 15- Apr 25, 2019 in Greece). in 2018, Canadian Team was Cummings-Plotkin-Findlay-Barron.

6. What will be the hotel price for single occupancy? 130 CAD?

Thank you Victor for your support. It also raises my confidence, as you're quite astute. Is there some risk to this project? I guess there is, but after LITERALLY years of contemplating how to build "the next North Bay", I think this has a good chance of succeeding. It's unfortunate about the World Senior Team Championship being at the same time, but these dates are deal-breakers. There's no other super-long-weekend in the year, and some hotels are starved for business on an otherwise "religious celebration" weekend. There's no other weekend where we can score so many deals and advantages. As for the single occupancy rate, $130 is the TOTAL rate. It includes 1 or 2 beds (whatever you want), free indoor parking, free daily breakfast buffet, absolutely no other hotel cost (except later meals, drinks, etc.)

Aris Marghetis
12-19-2018, 06:57 PM
1. As a player, as long as prizes and conditions are guaranteed (are they?), I would be interested to play simply because of the Canadian Champion title. As someone reviewing the bid, I am skeptic about 100 registrations being conservative. Good luck to you, I do hope you can pull it off.

2. Of course. I may be comparing it to how much CFC pays coaches at world youth, etc. over 9+ rounds, or comparing it to the projected prize fund.

3. I don't have a personal unbiased opinion about the matter. I like when rules are being followed though, just wondering why its selective. Simply going through the expenses.

Thanks for replying again Nikolay!

1) yes, prizes and conditions are guaranteed, but we're hoping to exceed them, hence the phrasing "minimum"

2) I hear ya, and we're starting with Danny, Hal, and myself. I hope most people consider that a decent start?!

3) To be honest, whereas there exists awareness of previous regulations, the bid is presented as is, with no commitment to such previous regulations. We just proposed what we felt was right, what would work, what would contribute the most to an excited buzz about the tournament. It is I guess confidence-inducing that some of our planning decisions matched popular previous regulations. We'll listen to any better ideas, but I can't see us matching a regulation just for the sake of it.

I hope that doesn't come across as arrogant. The #1 priority is a successful event for Canadian chess players.

Pierre Dénommée
12-19-2018, 08:37 PM
but these dates are deal-breakers. There's no other super-long-weekend in the year, and some hotels are starved for business on an otherwise "religious celebration" weekend. There's no other weekend where we can score so many deals and advantages.

That explains a lot, you are not free to choose the dates.

Jason Manley
12-20-2018, 06:59 PM
One question I have is regarding qualification for the top section. In the bid it states that players will not be permitted to play above the U2200 line. Will there be any provision for participation from smaller provinces? In each of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, none of the players in the most recent respective provincial closed championships were above 2200 at the beginning of the events. Would there be some avenue for smaller provinces nominating representatives for these events?

Aris Marghetis
12-20-2018, 07:49 PM
One question I have is regarding qualification for the top section. In the bid it states that players will not be permitted to play above the U2200 line. Will there be any provision for participation from smaller provinces? In each of New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island, none of the players in the most recent respective provincial closed championships were above 2200 at the beginning of the events. Would there be some avenue for smaller provinces nominating representatives for these events?

Hello Jason, thank you for your question. First, let me preface my response by admitting that I believe my decision is a minority view amongst the majority of Organizers. In my opinion, and my current decision, is that there is a solid line at 2200. The idea is to GUARANTEE that the top section will be comprised of elite players. This should NOT be painted as bias against any region. I don't care where in Canada players come from, but I feel performance is the key "distinguisher".

However, if there was an overwhelming motion to do otherwise, then I would of course listen to what people want.

Pierre Dénommée
12-20-2018, 08:41 PM
In my opinion, and my current decision, is that there is a solid line at 2200.

This also maximize the players' opportunity to achieve title norms by normal means (other then getting a direct title).

Fred McKim
12-20-2018, 09:48 PM
Hello Jason, thank you for your question. First, let me preface my response by admitting that I believe my decision is a minority view amongst the majority of Organizers. In my opinion, and my current decision, is that there is a solid line at 2200. The idea is to GUARANTEE that the top section will be comprised of elite players. This should NOT be painted as bias against any region. I don't care where in Canada players come from, but I feel performance is the key "distinguisher".

However, if there was an overwhelming motion to do otherwise, then I would of course listen to what people want.

Aris, I don't want to start an argument, and you know I voted for the bid, but I would be inclined to think that the best players in each province are elite players.

Aris Marghetis
12-21-2018, 04:32 PM
Aris, I don't want to start an argument, and you know I voted for the bid, but I would be inclined to think that the best players in each province are elite players.

Hello Fred, my regrets for taking so long to reply, but for some reason, I didn't get the classic new post boldness when you posted this last night ...

To your point, I didn't mean any offence. I am sure that any provincial champion would whip me in a match. Maybe I should have written something like "elite enough", but that's awkward. I agree to not argue, and please appreciate my dilemma: there are multiple "costs" to not holding 2200 line, and besides the public recognition of the provincial champions, I don't see any benefit. For the Zonal, I still believe we have to hold the 2200 line. Can we discuss the off-years separately?