8a. Motion on WYCC – Barron / Noritsyn (full text see below)

[Vladimir Drkulec]

The following Motion, was moved by Michael Barron and seconded by Nikolay Noritsyn at the January Governors Meeting:




To amend sub paragraph 712 (a) by adding the following sentence:
If the winner is unable to participate at WYCC, this fact shall be announced on the public CFC Forum as soon as it became known.




The amended sub paragraph 712 (a) shall read:




"712.Participation in the World Events:




INVITED PLAYERS




a) Canadian Youth Chess Championship (CYCC) is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.




Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:




1) World Youth Chess Championship (WYCC);




2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;




3) North American Youth Chess Championship.




If the winner is unable to participate at WYCC, this fact shall be announced on the public CFC Forum as soon as it became known.
If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in his place. If the second place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event (if not rejected by CFC Executive due to the sub paragraph (d)), shall be selected. The CFC Board of Directors shall use an appropriate tie-breaking method to break ties if required to determine the order of finish.




All official representatives to WYCC should receive financial support from CFC to reduce their travel expenses. "

[Valer Eugen Demian]

Is there a reason why the 3rd place finisher is not singled out (like the 1st and 2nd places) having priority over any other "highest finisher" (4th or lower) @ CYCC? In my opinion this kind of diminishes the accomplishment of finishing 3rd, doesn't it?

[Frank Lee]

I agree. Third place finishers should be included.

I am also concerned with the wording of "as soon as it became known". This is not practical because this requires someone to monitor all the all the players at all times and then respond immediately.

[Bob Armstrong]

I agree. Third place finishers should be included.

I am also concerned with the wording of "as soon as it became known". This is not practical because this requires someone to monitor all the all the players at all times and then respond immediately.

Seems like someone should move a specifically worded amendment motion to the original motion filed. Would it be possible (I believe it is not good form) for the mover/seconder to accept the amendment as a "friendly" one, and thus amend their original motion, and save us having to vote on both an amending motion, and then a main motion. Can we be that informal to be somewhat more efficient?

Bob A

[Michael Barron]

Gentlemen, let me respond to all comments in a single post.

You're right, Bob - on the Governors Forum Ken Craft suggested that "became" should be "becomes", and it was accepted as a "friendly" amendment - please see
http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/showthread.php?3809-2014-Spring-(April)-CFC-Governors-On-line-Meeting&p=24309#post24309

So, the corrected Motion is:

To amend sub paragraph 712 (a) by adding the following sentence:
If the winner is unable to participate at WYCC, this fact shall be announced on the public CFC Forum as soon as it becomes known.

The amended sub paragraph 712 (a) shall read:

"712.Participation in the World Events:

INVITED PLAYERS

a) Canadian Youth Chess Championship (CYCC) is a qualifier to international youth chess competitions.

Top 3 finishers in each section are qualified to become official representatives for:

1) World Youth Chess Championship (WYCC);

2) Pan American Youth Chess Championship;

3) North American Youth Chess Championship.

If the winner is unable to participate at WYCC, this fact shall be announced on the public CFC Forum as soon as it becomes known.
If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in his place. If the second place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event (if not rejected by CFC Executive due to the sub paragraph (d)), shall be selected. The CFC Board of Directors shall use an appropriate tie-breaking method to break ties if required to determine the order of finish.

All official representatives to WYCC should receive financial support from CFC to reduce their travel expenses. "

Valer, you probably could better answer the question "Is there a reason why the 3rd place finisher is not singled out?"
If you remember, you was one of the authors of original text 3 years ago... ;)
If you think this point is important, you're welcome to suggest an amendment to correct this deficiency.

The presented Motion adds a single sentence to existing text:
If the winner is unable to participate at WYCC, this fact shall be announced on the public CFC Forum as soon as it becomes known.
and intended to correct a problem that we saw last year:
when 3 CYCC winners declined their invitations to WYCC, nobody knew that until after registration deadline, except for the President and Youth Coordinator.
As a result, Canada wasn't properly represented in 2 out of 12 WYCC sections.

On the contrary, thanks to the President, now we know who is interested to represent Canada at NAYCC - please see
http://www.chesstalk.info/forum/showthread.php?11083-NAYCC-Head-of-Delegation-Provisional-Selection-Order-of-Official-Reps&p=79058#post79058
Everybody can see this information and take corrective actions, if necessary.
The presented Motion requests the similar information to be publicly available in the process of WYCC registration as well.

Yes, Frank, this Motion requires someone to monitor all the players at all times and then respond immediately.
And this "someone" - is you, the CFC Youth Coordinator.
If you're unable or unwilling to do your work - why did you let your name to stand for the Youth Coordinator position at the AGM? :confused:

[Vladimir Drkulec]

Yes, Frank, this Motion requires someone to monitor all the players at all times and then respond immediately.
And this "someone" - is you, the CFC Youth Coordinator.
If you're unable or unwilling to do your work - why did you let your name to stand for the Youth Coordinator position at the AGM? :confused:

This is not helpful. Frank has a low key and business like approach towards youth chess that is working. He is a very important component of why things are going right for us at the moment. He cares about the kids and approaches the task from the perspective of a chess parent which we need much more of. He is an important cog in the Windsor chess machine and also in the success of this administration. In the last week we have spent about six hours in face to face conversation with respect to CFC issues and have probably sent at least fifty emails if not more back and forth in addition. At the moment I get a feeling that a big old crocodile is eyeing my right hand for a quick snack. Don't be that crocodile. You can be much better than that.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

OK, I truly forgot about writing this 3 years ago; anyway I believe leaving the 3rd place out was just an oversight. My proposal is to add to this motion the 3rd place and have it written something like this:

"... If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in its place. If the second place is unable to participate, the third place finisher shall be invited to go in its place. If the third place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event..."

My addition is with bold letters. How about this one? Opinions please! :)

[Vladimir Drkulec]

OK, I truly forgot about writing this 3 years ago; anyway I believe leaving the 3rd place out was just an oversight. My proposal is to add to this motion the 3rd place and have it written something like this:

"... If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in its place. If the second place is unable to participate, the third place finisher shall be invited to go in its place. If the third place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event..."

My addition is with bold letters. How about this one? Opinions please! :)

It looks like a sensible addition to the handbook. I do have some reservations about the thrust of this which assumes that there is lots of time to approach each potential participant serially. I think it would make more sense if we allowed CYCC finisher number one, two and three to offer conditional acceptance where they are going only if they are the official player as a possible option and set the deadline early enough that we can sort everything out.

Vadim Tsypin kindly did a study of the various spring break timings across Canada were to a view of establishing an earlier time frame when we could hold our CYCC but unfortunately it doesn't seem that any two provinces have the same break period. The best we could hope for would be a weekend overlap between Ontario and Quebec with the other eight provinces all over the map and likely not being too amused if we tried to move it earlier in the year.

This year the deadline to register for WYCC may be before the end of CYCC so we will probably have to ask people to decide fairly quickly and maybe even before CYCC whether they wish to attend WYCC. I don't see any details from the organizers yet. It probably makes sense for people who definitely wish to go to make arrangements early to take advantage of the best flight prices.

[Ken Craft]

What problem is this motion designed to fix?

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

What problem is this motion designed to fix?

To make it ('unable to participate') a public knowledge.

[Ken Craft]

And is that a problem?

[Garland Best]

Ken, I suggest that you reread the discussions between Michael Barron and Vlad regarding the NAYCC. Michael believes there is a problem, while Vlad would differ. Whether it is a problem or not depends on whose view you agree with.

[Ken Craft]

I don't think it's a problem and I'm looking for those who think it is a problem to put forth a persuasive case.

[Valer Eugen Demian]

There needs to be a simple and transparent procedure to qualify for the 3 important junior tournaments: WYCC, PanAm and NAYCCC. Juniors in general have different goals and they need to adjust their training, schedule and performance each year based on those goals. I think this is the main problem this motion could fix!

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

There needs to be a simple and transparent procedure to qualify for the 3 important junior tournaments: WYCC, PanAm and NAYCCC. Juniors in general have different goals and they need to adjust their training, schedule and performance each year based on those goals. I think this is the main problem this motion could fix!

You should mention "when WYCC, PanAM, NAYCC are in the next year than the CYCC". Is there any way the CFC could influence tournaments' dates for PanAm and NAYCC?

[Lyle Craver]

To make it ('unable to participate') a public knowledge.

My main bur under my bonnet on this one is that I feel strongly that the CYCC organizers should be required to collect contact information from the players and make this info for 1st/2nd/3rd place finishers available to the business office. When we have a 'regrets' situation we often have to move quickly and on previous occasions (and this is not restricted to CYCC!) the office has had to use unreasonable amounts of time to contact third parties who may or may not have contact info for the alternates in a situation where time is big time of the essence.

If it turns out contact can't be made fast enough they go to the next name and inevitably those passed over are upset. This isn't fair to the players, the Office or the Exec.

In short, my feeling is that if you're 2400+ or have scored in the top 3 it is your duty to make sure your contact info is on hand.

Bottom line: the Office and the Executive do do our best to give our stars the best possible chance to compete but the obligation isn't all one way and I am tired of seeing some of the recriminations we've seen far too often in a certain web forum and elsewhere.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

the CYCC organizers should be required to collect contact information from the players and make this info for 1st/2nd/3rd place finishers available to the business office.

I'm surprised that this practice was not implemented from the 1st CYCC :/ It is common to provide full parents' and close family friend's contacts when a kid attends a camp. The CFC should set standard not organizers or parents.

[Michael Barron]

Ken, if Canada is not represented in all 12 WYCC sections, it is a problem - it's lost opportunity to develop Canadian chess.
On the other side, if Federation cares about players - the players care about Federation.
It's important for the future of Canadian chess, it's important for the future of CFC.

[Lyle Craver]

Well the point is that the obligation is two way not one way and too often the Office has had to go to extraordinary steps to make contact. I don't think that's fair to the Office.

Too many people (by no means just juniors) figure not keeping in touch is OK then complain if they get passed over. After all, the President and the Office are always wrong right? This problem goes back a long time and I suspect if you asked Jonathan Berry (who I've known for 40 years) he'd just shake his head sadly.

I'm going to support this as it's a step in the right direction. If we vote against anything that isn't perfection we'll never get anywhere.

[Vladimir Drkulec]

I don't have a problem with the intent of the motion. Just realize if the situation is such that it is practically impossible to follow the motion because of very late notice or missing contact information or being ignored by the potential contactees then it will probably be ignored. As Lyle said there is a two way street as far as responsibility for communication.

On a related note we don't have anyone in under 14 girls for NAYCC. Janet Peng wanted to go but is not sure that she can get the time off school. Unfortunately her mother has not been able to get the school to confirm that she will be allowed to attend. She is the only under 14 girl who has expressed interest. I am going to try to get the ability to make a substitution in the event that she is not able to attend. We need to do more to get girls to stick with chess longer.

There are 34 Canadian players registered to attend NAYCC at the moment with 35 possible if Janet Peng is successful with her school. Seven Windsor players are among the registered. Final determinations of official players will take place later today. Frank Lee or I might post it as soon as it is finalized.