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View Full Version : 7. 2013-R Participation in the World Junior (Mallon/Denommee) - commentary only



Michael von Keitz
09-30-2012, 06:22 PM
To Change Section 1052 of the CFC Handbook.

Section 1052 currently reads:


1062. Participation in the World Event:
The winner of the event shall be eligible to participate in the World Junior event. If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in his place. If the second place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event, shall be selected. The CFC Board of Directors shall use an appropriate tie breaking method to break ties if required to determine the order of finish. [Amended, see Motion 2003-02, 02-03GL3, December 2002]


Change to:



1062 Participation in the World Junior Championship and World Junior Girls Championship:

a) The official representative of Canada in the World Junior Championship events will be the winners of the respective National events. If the winner is unable to participate, the second place finisher shall be invited to go in his place. If the second place finisher also declines, the highest finisher in the tournament who is willing to participate in the world event shall be selected.

b) Additional players may participate, however they will not be the official Canadian representative and as such will not be entitled to any special offers from the organizer of the World event. Such players are responsible for all fees and expenses that may be involved in their participation. They must qualify in one of the three following methods:
1) Finished 1st-3rd in the National event
2) Are rated higher than 2300 CFC or 2200 FIDE (2100 CFC and 2000 FIDE for girls)
3) Participated in the National event and have a peak CFC or FIDE rating above 2000 (1800 for girls)

c) Any players who wish to participate in a World Junior Championship event who qualify under 1062.b.2 or 1062.b.3 must pay a $250 fee to the CFC in order to be eligible. Players qualifying under 1062.b.1 are exempt from paying this fee. All fees collected under this rule are to be immediately forwarded by the CFC as a principal donation to the Kalev Pugi fund to support youth chess in Canada.

d) The CFC Board of Directors shall use an appropriate tie breaking method to break ties if required to determine the order of finish. The tie breaking method must be acceptable as per CFC and FIDE rules, and must be announced prior to the start of the National event.


Background

We've had issues trying to find the right compromise between protecting the Canadian Junior and giving our Youth access to the strongest events. This motion would allow strong players more opportunity to participate in the World Junior events, while at the same time either supporting the Canadian Junior, or supporting the Kalev Pugi fund by increasing its principal balance and by extension increasing how much support they are able to provide annually.

Some have suggested the rules for the Junior should be identical to the WYCC. That argument is valid to some extent, however with the Junior we are also dealing with University students who potentially have much less flexibility with their time. Also, were similar rules including donations to the Pugi fund put into place for the WYCC, we could see the Pugi fund rapidly grow in size which is also a great thing for Youth chess in Canada.

Having the entire fee go to the Pugi fund makes it obvious that the money will be used for Youth chess and not just go into general revenues. This 100% pass-through would not work for the WYCC since there are team expenses for that event, so some money would have to be retained for those purposes.

Halldor P. Palsson
10-01-2012, 05:41 PM
I do not think we have a problem that needs solving. I think the existing section gives enough of a guide to the Executive.

The new rule proposes that the CFC charge $250 for registering participation. I think it is not appropriate given the effort and expense involved in participating in the tournament.

I also do not think the CFC should limit who goes at their own expense to the World Junior if FIDE has chosen not to do so. I think that aspect is better handled through amending the FIDE rules.

Michael Barron
10-01-2012, 09:23 PM
This is a good motion, necessary for developing chess in Canada and improving prestige of Canadian Junior Championship.
Unfortunately, the presented wording leave impression that we don't want our best juniors to compete at the National Championship.
I would think, the wording could be improved to encourage our best players to participate at Canadian Junior.

I suggest to replace paragraph 1062(b) with:

"b) Additional players may participate, however they will not be the official Canadian representative and as such will not be entitled to any special offers from the organizer of the World event. Such players are responsible for all fees and expenses that may be involved in their participation. They must qualify in one of the three following methods:
1) Finished 2nd or 3rd (including ties) in the National event;
2) Participated in the National event and have a peak CFC or FIDE rating above 2000 (1800 for girls);
3) Players rated higher than 2300 CFC or 2200 FIDE (2100 CFC or 2000 FIDE for girls), if not able to participate at the National event due to extraordinary circumstances, are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation at the World event. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application at their discretion if applicant's circumstances are not valid and/or exceptional."

Any seconder?

Egidijus Zeromskis
10-01-2012, 09:38 PM
Just an idea: Junior could qualify if (s)he played in the same year Closed or Open and collected at least 50% points.


I also do not think the CFC should limit who goes at their own expense to the World Junior if FIDE has chosen not to do so.

FIDE transfers a selection responsibility to national federations.

Christopher Mallon
10-01-2012, 09:46 PM
This is a good motion, necessary for developing chess in Canada and improving prestige of Canadian Junior Championship.
Unfortunately, the presented wording leave impression that we don't want our best juniors to compete at the National Championship.
I would think, the wording could be improved to encourage our best players to participate at Canadian Junior.

I suggest to replace paragraph 1062(b) with:

"b) Additional players may participate, however they will not be the official Canadian representative and as such will not be entitled to any special offers from the organizer of the World event. Such players are responsible for all fees and expenses that may be involved in their participation. They must qualify in one of the three following methods:
1) Finished 2nd or 3rd (including ties) in the National event;
2) Participated in the National event and have a peak CFC or FIDE rating above 2000 (1800 for girls);
3) Players rated higher than 2300 CFC or 2200 FIDE (2100 CFC or 2000 FIDE for girls), if not able to participate at the National event due to extraordinary circumstances, are eligible to submit to CFC their applications for participation at the World event. CFC Executive has the right to reject the application at their discretion if applicant's circumstances are not valid and/or exceptional."

Any seconder?

Michael, it is not permitted to have another motion dealing with the exact same matter in the same meeting. You need to propose an amendment to the existing motion.

As to your proposed motion... it says almost exactly the same thing as mine, in slightly different words. What's the point? Throwing the word "extraordinary" and a right for the CFC exec to refuse is just asking for future trouble (see WYCC mess in 2011).

Christopher Mallon
10-01-2012, 09:51 PM
I do not think we have a problem that needs solving. I think the existing section gives enough of a guide to the Executive.

That's certainly a reasonable opinion; some people think there is a problem and I'm proposing a possible solution.


The new rule proposes that the CFC charge $250 for registering participation. I think it is not appropriate given the effort and expense involved in participating in the tournament.

It's not a fee to go into general revenues, it's effectively a donation to support Youth chess in Canada - IMHO a reasonable compromise to being allowed to bypass the "usual" qualification method for the World Junior.


I also do not think the CFC should limit who goes at their own expense to the World Junior if FIDE has chosen not to do so. I think that aspect is better handled through amending the FIDE rules.

As Egis said, it's not that FIDE has chosen not to place limits, it's that they've chosen to let individual countries set their own limits. As the (lack of a) rule stands now, I believe I have a nephew around 350 strength who could go if someone was willing to pay for him to go.

Also, since it's at their own expense... why should all of that money go to supporting chess in another country, why not a small donation here as well?

Vladimir Drkulec
10-02-2012, 11:13 AM
It's not a fee to go into general revenues, it's effectively a donation to support Youth chess in Canada - IMHO a reasonable compromise to being allowed to bypass the "usual" qualification method for the World Junior.


If there has to be a new rule, I think it should be as non-restrictive as possible. It just seems to me that we have just had a very successful World Junior and we are rushing out to fix the problem which I and at least one other governor don't see as a problem at all. Wherever the money goes it is still a significant tax on the participant. Should we really be taking money from the pocket of one junior to support other juniors? The effect of this rule will be to limit participation by Canadian juniors in the world junior tournament to avoid a hypothetical situation where a rich 600 rated player decides to play. We are fixing a problem that doesn't really exist and in the process making Canadian participation in this tournament more difficult.

Not participating in the Canadian Junior can be quite a rational decision when participation almost certainly involves long distance travel at an inconvenient time of the year for university and high school students. Air travel in Canada is an expensive proposition as is hotel accommodations. Throw in a slow economy and its a wonder that we get any participation at all. Windsor did have participation in the Calgary tournament last year from Brendon and Melissa Lee but I don't really see anyone making the trip this year. Hopefully I am wrong on that.

Pierre Dénommée
10-02-2012, 11:47 AM
The current wording does not mandates that the tiebrek be announced in advance, thus giving the Executive the ability to favour any candidate they wish.

For example

Junior 1 tiebreaks SB 10 Bucholtz 50
Junior 2 tirbrreak SB 9.5 Bucholtz 51

If the tiebreak is not announced in advance, choosing the tiebreak is equivalent to manually selecting the winner. This has been universally recognized as unfair and unacceptable.

Halldor P. Palsson
10-02-2012, 07:48 PM
I am happy to see Canadians at the World Junior - I think the expense and effort required would tend to attract only serious chess players.

I can live with people with more money than sense going. I also want the CFC Executive to have discretion in this matter so I am not in favour of giving very detailed guidence here.

I will vote against this motion.

Michael Barron
10-02-2012, 11:12 PM
Michael, it is not permitted to have another motion dealing with the exact same matter in the same meeting. You need to propose an amendment to the existing motion.

As to your proposed motion... it says almost exactly the same thing as mine, in slightly different words. What's the point? Throwing the word "extraordinary" and a right for the CFC exec to refuse is just asking for future trouble (see WYCC mess in 2011).

Sorry, Chris, if I was not clear enough... :(

Indeed, I propose an amendment to the existing motion.
Yes, in effect, my proposal is the same as yours - just different wording.
The point is - to encourage our best players to participate at Canadian Junior.

Hope, it clarifies my proposal.

Vladimir Drkulec
10-03-2012, 01:19 PM
I am happy to see Canadians at the World Junior - I think the expense and effort required would tend to attract only serious chess players.

I can live with people with more money than sense going. I also want the CFC Executive to have discretion in this matter so I am not in favour of giving very detailed guidence here.

I will vote against this motion.

The question that the governors need to ask is, "Is it reasonable to take $250 out of Eric Hansen's pocket and another $250 out of Aman Hambleton's pocket to give to someone else through the Pugi fund?" That would have been the effect of this motion if it were in place for the last World Junior.

There is a tendency in some quarters to want to regulate anything and everything about chess played in Canada and by Canadians. This regulation is definitely better than some of the regulations that were bandied about but I am not sure that it is better than the current status quo which is relatively fewer regulations. It seems to me that we are penalizing the strong players that want to play chess internationally with this new set of rules. The $250 cost is only a small part of the cost of playing in the world junior but it is an amount that could tip the balance between playing and not playing. As the masters representative, I think that I have to vote against this motion on that basis alone.

Another concern I have is that some of the thresholds for women are so high that members of the last few womens olympiad teams would not qualify. If someone in the top half dozen girls in the country would not qualify under these rules then we probably need to refine them. In Windsor, there does not seem to be any significant difference in chess play between boys and girls. Having girls adopt chess in the same numbers that boys do could certainly almost double our numbers overnight. Having the opportunity to play in a tournament where norms are possible is something that we shouldn't lightly deny to the few young women who might want to take advantage of the opportunity.

Christopher Mallon
10-03-2012, 04:48 PM
Regarding the cutoffs for the girls, they are the same distance (in ratings points) from the respective norms as the boys are, which is why I picked them in that way. No offense to anyone but if you aren't above the listed rating requirement you probably won't be getting a norm - and I challenge anyone to show me even one example of a Canadian rated so low (both FIDE and CFC) getting a norm at any event.

Michael Barron
10-03-2012, 09:52 PM
The question that the governors need to ask is, "Is it reasonable to take $250 out of Eric Hansen's pocket and another $250 out of Aman Hambleton's pocket to give to someone else through the Pugi fund?" That would have been the effect of this motion if it were in place for the last World Junior.

There is a tendency in some quarters to want to regulate anything and everything about chess played in Canada and by Canadians. This regulation is definitely better than some of the regulations that were bandied about but I am not sure that it is better than the current status quo which is relatively fewer regulations. It seems to me that we are penalizing the strong players that want to play chess internationally with this new set of rules. The $250 cost is only a small part of the cost of playing in the world junior but it is an amount that could tip the balance between playing and not playing. As the masters representative, I think that I have to vote against this motion on that basis alone.

Another concern I have is that some of the thresholds for women are so high that members of the last few womens olympiad teams would not qualify. If someone in the top half dozen girls in the country would not qualify under these rules then we probably need to refine them. In Windsor, there does not seem to be any significant difference in chess play between boys and girls. Having girls adopt chess in the same numbers that boys do could certainly almost double our numbers overnight. Having the opportunity to play in a tournament where norms are possible is something that we shouldn't lightly deny to the few young women who might want to take advantage of the opportunity.

Vlad,

The role of the Chess Federation of Canada is to develop chess in Canada.
To represent Canada at World Championship - it's a privilege that should be earned in Canada.

The question that the governors need to ask is:
What could we do to encourage our best players to compete at the Canadian Championships?

The proposed motion doesn't deny anybody of the opportunity to play chess internationally.
Anybody could qualify for the World Junior - by winning Canadian Junior - as in any other sport.
Moreover, any player who finish in the top 3 at the Canadian Junior is qualified.
Moreover, any player who competes at the Canadian Junior and has reasonable chess level is qualified.
Moreover, any player who has a reasonable chance for international norm, but can't compete at the Canadian Junior for a serious reason, is qualified.

What else could we do for Canadian chess development? :confused:

As a master representative, could you please consider the following issues:
Why the best Canadian female player has never played at the Canadian Junior (or CYCC for that matter) ?
What could we do to develop chess in Canada?
What could we do to make Canadian players more competitive internationally?
What could we do to make our National Championships more attractive for our best players?

And yes, I find it reasonable that Shiyam Thavandiran, who in January flies from Toronto to Calgary to compete at the Canadian Junior and spends much more than $250 for this trip, gets some grant from the Pugi fund to help him play chess internationally... ;)