11. 2012-K Canadian Junior Chess Championship (Bob Armstrong)

[Lyle Craver]

Moved – Bob Armstrong; Seconded – Michael Barron

Moved that Section 10, Paragraph 1051. Canadian Junior Chess Championship, which currently reads:

A Tournament known as the Canadian Junior Chess Championship hereinafter referred to as the Junior Tournament shall normally be held each year to determine that year's Canadian Junior Champion and consist of 2 sections - Open and Girls. When there are less than eight girls, then the sections shall be combined. The winner of the Junior Tournament will also be the Canadian representative to the World Junior Chess Championship.

shall be deleted, and the following shall be substituted for it:

"1051. Canadian Junior Chess Championship

a) A Tournament known as the Canadian Junior Chess Championship hereinafter referred to as the Junior Tournament shall normally be held each year to determine the Canadian Junior Champions and consist of 2 sections - Open and Girls. When there are less than eight players in either section, then the sections shall be combined.

b) The winners shall also have a choice to be the Canadian representatives to the World Junior Chess Championship, or the Pan-American Chess Championship. The devolution of bursaries shall be:

i) If the 1st place finisher chooses World Junior or Pan-Am Junior:
1. the second place finisher gets to go to the other at their own expense;
2. if the second place finisher declines, then it goes to the third place finisher,
3. if the third place finisher declines, then the Executive shall have the discretion to appoint a representative.

ii ) If the 1st place finisher declines both tournaments:
1. the second place finisher has the choice;
2. if the second place finisher chooses one, then the third place finisher gets to go to the other at their own expense; if the third place finisher declines, then the Executive shall have the discretion to appoint a representative;
3. if the second place finisher declines both, then the third place finisher has the choice. If the third place finisher chooses one, then the Executive shall have the discretion to appoint a representative to the other, at his/her own expense. If the third place finisher declines, then the Executive shall have the discretion to appoint a representative to the World Junior ( bursary ) and the Pan-American Junior ( at his/her own expense, unless there has been no designation of a Canadian representative to the World Junior, whereupon they would get the bursary amount ). If the Executive is unable to designate a representative to either tournament, then the prize money shall be deposited into the CFC Youth Fund, for general future youth programs.

Commentary:

There are two purposes of the Canadian Junior Championship as set out currently. The main purpose is the determination of a national Canadian Junior Champions. The secondary purpose is the determination of the international representatives to the World Junior Championship.

We have noted that the Canadian Youth Chess Championships determine not only the representative to the WYCC, but also to the Pan-American YCC and the North American YCC. So we have made the Canadian Junior a determiner of a representative as well to the Pan-American Junior Championship.

At the 2011 Fall Meeting, the governors indicated to the Executive in a very close straw vote that the Junior Champions should not be able to use their prize for the Pan-American Junior Championship. But in the light of further argument after the meeting, some votes have shifted. We feel that it is now best that the first place finishers be given the option of choosing to go to the World Junior or the Pan-American Junior. The reason is that we want to attract the strongest Canadian juniors to the Canadian Junior. And there is more incentive if the winner has an option. A very strong Canadian Junior indicated that he did not play one year because there was no option, and there was a date conflict where he could not go to the World Junior, so he did not participate at all that year. Having an option gives the greatest chance of attracting the best Canadian juniors.

If not used, the prizes follow a devolution system as set out. But Canada does not wish to end up sending a representative who is not qualified to compete. So the trickle down of the prizes only goes to the third place finisher, and then the executive gets to appoint, with no conditions on them. This is similar to the theory for selection of a member to the Olympiad Team by a Selection Committee. Under this devolution system, Canada will send worthy representatives to the World Junior and the Pan-American Junior. If it finally ends up that there is no representative to either tournament, then the prize money will go into the CFC Youth Fund for general future youth programs. "

[Christopher Mallon]

The only way I will agree with this is if it is clearly stated that if the winner chooses the Pan-Am, they are receiving the 2nd place prize and the travel bursary that goes with the 2nd place prize, and that they are NOT simply attending the "2nd place tournament" with the 1st place bursary.

[Bob Armstrong]

Hi Chris:

What you suggest is opposite to the intent and application of the motion.

The idea is to make the first prize so attractive, that our very strongest juniors will come out to play for the Canadian Championship. To do this, we have to offer the first prize winner a choice - s/he can go to the World Junior, or to the Pan-Am Junior. Whichever they choose becomes the " first place prize ", along with the accompanying first place bursary. The winner is NOT receiving the " 2nd place prize "; s/he is receiving the first place prize with whichever choice they make.

So we cannot accomodate your suggestion informally for amending the motion.

Bob A, motion mover

[Christopher Mallon]

It wasn't a suggestion for informally amending the motion, it was just a statement of what the motion would require to earn my support. I realise it's different than what you propose.

[Hal Bond]

Does the Junior tournament fund the trip to the World's or Pan-Ams? I think the Junior has lost some of its appeal because there are now 6 World Championship age groups which precede it, so I do not believe that this motion will make it any more attractive.

I prefer a use it or lose it policy. If the champ declines we keep the money, or at least a chunk of it. Our youth programs do not contribute sufficiently to our overheads.

[Egidijus Zeromskis]

I prefer a use it or lose it policy. If the champ declines we keep the money, or at least a chunk of it.

I prefer that if the champ declines a participation in the WJCC, the second/third get a chance to fight.

[Hal Bond]

I'm sure my view is unpopular. And there is always the benefit of being seen to participate in World Championships.

[Michael Barron]

I'm sure my view is unpopular. And there is always the benefit of being seen to participate in World Championships.

Hal, your view is not only unpopular.
Unfortunately, your view is killing Canadian Junior... :(

2012 Canadian Junior starts in just 2 days - please take a look:
http://www.cjcc2012.ca/?page_id=36

They have a great website, they have a great organizing committee, they're planning a great event!

But...
Unfortunately, not many players are willing to participate... :(

Why is that?

I would think, the main reason - is your "use it or lose it" policy.

Could we do something to save Canadian Junior?
What could we do to attract more players, especially our best players?

Please see one suggestion:
http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/showthread.php?p=15440#poststop

[Vladimir Drkulec]

Hal, your view is not only unpopular.
Unfortunately, your view is killing Canadian Junior... :(

2012 Canadian Junior starts in just 2 days - please take a look:
http://www.cjcc2012.ca/?page_id=36

They have a great website, they have a great organizing committee, they're planning a great event!

But...
Unfortunately, not many players are willing to participate... :(

Why is that?

I would think, the main reason - is your "use it or lose it" policy.

I think that the real problem is the high cost of air travel within Canada. The cost of participation dwarfs the potential prize for all but local players.

[Michael Barron]

I think that the real problem is the high cost of air travel within Canada. The cost of participation dwarfs the potential prize for all but local players.

Vlad,

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion...

But did you read the Andrei's post ? :confused:
Here it is again:
http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/showthread.php?p=15440#poststop

Let me ask you a simple yes/no question:
Do you want Alexandra Botez to participate at Canadian Junior or not?

[Vladimir Drkulec]

Let me ask you a simple yes/no question:
Do you want Alexandra Botez to participate at Canadian Junior or not?

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Christopher Mallon]

Vlad,

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinion...

But did you read the Andrei's post ? :confused:
Here it is again:
http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/showthread.php?p=15440#poststop

Let me ask you a simple yes/no question:
Do you want Alexandra Botez to participate at Canadian Junior or not?

Given that the event starts in two days you say, and the vote on this motion won't even start before that, it's a bit of a moot point wouldn't you say?

[Vladimir Drkulec]

Given that the event starts in two days you say, and the vote on this motion won't even start before that, it's a bit of a moot point wouldn't you say?

Affirmative.

[Ken Craft]

I'll be voting against this motion. I support Hal's "use it or lose it" point of view.

[Hal Bond]

Michael, I am astonished that an opinion stated on this private board can have such retroactive consequences!

As I said, I believe the Junior struggles because the prospective players have already had 10 years of age specific competition. In addition, the Canadian delegation is much smaller - often just the player alone. A third factor is the advancing age of the players - they are moving into career related training at University so the parental budget for extra cirricular learning experiences may be more strained.

By the way it's not just the Junior - look at the U18 categories at the CYCC.

[Michael Barron]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Thank you, Vlad!

The next question:
What could we do to make Canadian Junior more attractive for our players?

Unfortunately, it's too late for 2012 Canadian Junior... :(

But we still could make the necessary changes for 2013. :cool:

[Michael Barron]

Michael, I am astonished that an opinion stated on this private board can have such retroactive consequences!

As I said, I believe the Junior struggles because the prospective players have already had 10 years of age specific competition. In addition, the Canadian delegation is much smaller - often just the player alone. A third factor is the advancing age of the players - they are moving into career related training at University so the parental budget for extra cirricular learning experiences may be more strained.

By the way it's not just the Junior - look at the U18 categories at the CYCC.

Hal, of course, there are many reasons for the Junior to struggle...
Some we can't change, unfortunately. :(
But some reasons we can eliminate. ;)

The question is:
What could we do to make Canadian Junior more attractive for our players?

By the way, you could look at the U18 categories at the CYCC as example:
this year we had IM, 4 FMs, including Canadian Junior Champion, Canadian Chess Challenge Champion and BC Closed Champion, North American medalist, 2 members of Canadian Olympic team... :cool:

[Ken Craft]

Return it to a round-robin event.

[Fred McKim]

Return it to a round-robin event.

I think the climate has changed from the years when the thought of qualifying for a round-robin event was sufficient to draw the best players from all regions. We don't have the membership base to finance the winner any more.

I think the answer is sponsorship. Of course then a quality round-robin could be held.

[Pierre Dénommée]

If the only question is how to make it appealing, then it is clear that a return to the traditional time slot of December 26th to December 30th would be in order. All juniors in Canada are not in school at this time and almost none are working. Summer is another possibility, but many students do have jobs in the summer. Spring Break is a poor time because even in Quebec, not all schools are breaking in the same week,

The problem that I have faced is that the rental price for a venue is much higher at this time of the year. On my last attempt, the Junior Coordinator told me that the bid was not acceptable because of the prohibitive cost of the venue. The problem is that most non-profits with inexpensive venues to rent are closed at this period of the year and they charge a hefty premium for opening.

Since I have moved away from Montreal, I am now facing another problem which is a lack of accommodations. Irrespective of the price of the venue, the players would have nowhere to stay and we have only a single small restaurant. A shuttle service would be required to moved the players from the hotel to the playing venue. The largest hotel around has a whooping 47 rooms.

Another problem is that the participants to the Junior Championship are mainly local residents. We should find a sponsor to cover the cost of travel. This alone should increase the participation.

[Michael Barron]

If the only question is how to make it appealing, then it is clear that a return to the traditional time slot of December 26th to December 30th would be in order. All juniors in Canada are not in school at this time and almost none are working. Summer is another possibility, but many students do have jobs in the summer. Spring Break is a poor time because even in Quebec, not all schools are breaking in the same week,

The problem that I have faced is that the rental price for a venue is much higher at this time of the year. On my last attempt, the Junior Coordinator told me that the bid was not acceptable because of the prohibitive cost of the venue. The problem is that most non-profits with inexpensive venues to rent are closed at this period of the year and they charge a hefty premium for opening.

Since I have moved away from Montreal, I am now facing another problem which is a lack of accommodations. Irrespective of the price of the venue, the players would have nowhere to stay and we have only a single small restaurant. A shuttle service would be required to moved the players from the hotel to the playing venue. The largest hotel around has a whooping 47 rooms.

Another problem is that the participants to the Junior Championship are mainly local residents. We should find a sponsor to cover the cost of travel. This alone should increase the participation.

Yes, Pierre, the only question we're discussing now - is how to make Canadian Junior more appealing.

There are several ways to do so.

Yes, we could try a different time slot.
I personally doubt that the traditional time slot of December 26th to December 30th would be better:
it's the traditional time of North American Inter-Collegiate Championship, North American Open, and many people are planning family vacation for this time.
This year's time - January 5th to January 8th is similar - all juniors in Canada are not in school at this time and almost none are working.
In my view, the best time slot is end of April - beginning of May - immediately after spring session in Universities and before summer jobs. At this time is easier to get a space at University campus and affordable accommodation at University residence.
But this issue depends on Canadian Junior organizers. If we will have several bids at the AGM, we could choose the most appropriate time slot.
Unfortunately, we can't do it at this meeting.

Yes, we could try a different location.
It's always better to host Canadian Junior where the majority of potential participants live.
On the other hand, we can't host Canadian Junior in Toronto area year after year - we need to develop chess in all provinces.
Again, this issue depends on Canadian Junior organizers, and we can't resolve it at this meeting.

Yes, we could find a sponsor to cover the cost of travel.
This issue we can't resolve it at this meeting neither.

What we can do now - is to allow Canadian Junior Champions to choose their prize:
World Junior or Pan-American Junior.

This small change would bring at least one more Canadian Junior participant - please see http://www.chesscanada.info/forum/showthread.php?p=15440#poststop

Thank you for your consideration!