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View Full Version : 10. Affiliate Program Discussion



Lyle Craver
09-30-2011, 03:06 AM
Our President Michael von Keitz will be heading up this discussion

Michael von Keitz
10-01-2011, 07:09 PM
With the hope of perhaps presenting a motion at the next quarterly meeting, I would like to take this opportunity to have a discussion on the possibility of revamping the old Affiliate Program. In a nutshell, you used to be able to pay a fee to the CFC in order to receive a percentage of each membership you collected on the Federation's behalf.

My first question is whether you think it's a worthwhile program - it has failed before, will it fail again?

My second question is whether it should remain in the same form - same fee, same percentage, etc?

My final question is whether restrictions should apply - only open to clubs/organizations (i.e. not individuals, such as TDs), only able to target people from your geographic area (i.e. only an organization in Ottawa may collect memberships for residents of Ottawa), only able to collect a membership from the same person X number of years?

Lyle Craver
10-01-2011, 07:27 PM
My preference would be for limiting it to provincial affiliates.

I would not object to a provincial affiliate (ON?) allowing sub-provincial groups as long as any revenue rights either stayed with the province or were permanently assigned by a written agreement filed with the CFC. No double dipping in other words!

Christopher Mallon
10-01-2011, 08:15 PM
How would a provincial affiliate differ from a provincial association exactly?

I wouldn't mind seeing clubs allowed to purchase these, however to avoid the main problem with the program as it was before, you'd have to actually keep track of which club a member is associated with. That way no matter how they renew the next year, the affiliate gets the money back.

Of course the member could ask the CFC to change or terminate their association with a club at any time. The earlier problems were that a club would sign up its members but then some would renew at out of town events, or even by automatic credit card renewals at the request of the CFC, rather than giving their money to their club.

Fred McKim
10-01-2011, 11:27 PM
I wasn't aware there were any failures with the original program. I think it simply failed to be advertized any more by us.

Pierre Dénommée
10-02-2011, 04:15 PM
Chris, we are debating who can be an affiliate. An affiliate has nothing to do with a Provincial Association. An affiliate is a person or a legal person (Club, League..) that has been authorised to sell CFC memberships in exchange for a commission. Anybody may sell a CFC membership, but only an affiliate will get paid for doing so.

The question are

1. Do we want anyone to sell CFC memberships for a commission?
2. If yes, who should be authorised and what should be the rate of commission?


How would a provincial affiliate differ from a provincial association exactly?

Christopher Mallon
10-02-2011, 04:54 PM
Chris, we are debating who can be an affiliate. An affiliate has nothing to do with a Provincial Association. An affiliate is a person or a legal person (Club, League..) that has been authorised to sell CFC memberships in exchange for a commission. Anybody may sell a CFC membership, but only an affiliate will get paid for doing so.

The question are

1. Do we want anyone to sell CFC memberships for a commission?
2. If yes, who should be authorised and what should be the rate of commission?

Pierre, your post makes no sense. I never said the provincial associations should be affiliates. Plus I'm pretty sure I know what an affiliate is.

Michael von Keitz
10-03-2011, 05:10 PM
In order to reinvigorate this conversation, I'll provide a specific scenario:

$50 buy-in for 10% commission on membership sales. No restrictions. Memberships brought in by affiliates are tracked, but it's up to them to ensure repeat business.

Discuss.

Bob Gillanders
10-03-2011, 05:19 PM
In order to reinvigorate this conversation, I'll provide a specific scenario:

$50 buy-in for 10% commission on membership sales. No restrictions. Memberships brought in by affiliates are tracked, but it's up to them to ensure repeat business.

Discuss.

10% of what?
For example, Ontario adult membership is $ 48. ( 36 CFC +7 OCA + 5 HST)
I am guessing it is 10% of $36 = $ 3.60 commission.
The affiliate is responsible for getting proper addresses and emails, right?

Michael von Keitz
10-03-2011, 05:47 PM
Your guess is correct and, yes, the affiliate would be responsible for collecting membership information as part of the program.

Christopher Mallon
10-03-2011, 08:16 PM
If the CFC doesn't keep track of affiliation, and indeed encourages automatic renewals (as they should!) Then how is this different from the old program that sputtered to nothingness?

Michael von Keitz
10-03-2011, 08:45 PM
We can track affiliations, but the affiliates can't expect the office to provide them with up-to-the-minute notice when one of their members comes up for renewal. What I mean when I say "it's up to them to ensure repeat business" is that the affiliate should keep on top of expirations (info readily available on the website) and proactively pursue members.

Christopher Mallon
10-03-2011, 09:57 PM
And what I meant is that the affiliate should get the 10 percent no matter how the member renews, unless they switch to another affiliate.

Mark S. Dutton, I.A.
10-03-2011, 10:28 PM
Your guess is correct and, yes, the affiliate would be responsible for collecting membership information as part of the program.

Dutton Chess Club on Bayview was an affiliate for years -- as was the SCC.

It is of great benefit -- the organization breaks even after about 20 CFC memberships sold in a year.

So... if an individual organizer or club or organization sells more than 20 memberships per year, it is a worthwhile Program to have.

The program also provides greater incentive to TD's to "UP-Sell" the tournament membership fee to a full 1 year membership.

Michael von Keitz
10-03-2011, 11:21 PM
And what I meant is that the affiliate should get the 10 percent no matter how the member renews, unless they switch to another affiliate.

The purpose of the tracking would be to avoid affiliates sniping members from other affiliates, but I don't think the affiliate should receive the yearly 10% ad infinitum if they do nothing to ensure the members they attract stay with the organization. E-mail the member to remind them to renew and CC the office, or have the member indicate that they have again renewed through you (or send it in yourself as part of a package), otherwise I'd give the office credit for the sale.

Michael von Keitz
10-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Dutton Chess Club on Bayview was an affiliate for years -- as was the SCC.

It is of great benefit -- the organization breaks even after about 20 CFC memberships sold in a year.

So... if an individual organizer or club or organization sells more than 20 memberships per year, it is a worthwhile Program to have.

The program also provides greater incentive to TD's to "UP-Sell" the tournament membership fee to a full 1 year membership.

As a former user of the program, do you think the numbers are right, or could the buy-in and/or percentage stand to change from what I'm suggesting?

Christopher Mallon
10-04-2011, 12:08 AM
The purpose of the tracking would be to avoid affiliates sniping members from other affiliates, but I don't think the affiliate should receive the yearly 10% ad infinitum if they do nothing to ensure the members they attract stay with the organization. E-mail the member to remind them to renew and CC the office, or have the member indicate that they have again renewed through you (or send it in yourself as part of a package), otherwise I'd give the office credit for the sale.

You completely missed my point. The office likes doing auto-renewals on credit cards. This is a great business concept and should be encouraged. Therefore it should not conflict with the affiliates program. It also requires less work on the part of the office than selling a brand new membership so I don't see why they should get "credit" for the sale (were you going to give the office workers the 10%?)...

Michael von Keitz
10-04-2011, 12:57 AM
You completely missed my point. The office likes doing auto-renewals on credit cards. This is a great business concept and should be encouraged. Therefore it should not conflict with the affiliates program. It also requires less work on the part of the office than selling a brand new membership so I don't see why they should get "credit" for the sale (were you going to give the office workers the 10%?)...

It seems I may have. I was focused on those that renew year-after-year without being set up for auto-renewal (e.g. pay cash at tournaments, mail in a cheque, etc). My statement still stands for those cases. As for those that are set-up for auto-renewal from the get-go, sure, it seems appropriate to allocate the 10% to the affiliate for each renewal. Also, no, I wasn't equating giving the office credit with giving them a 10% commission.

Christopher Mallon
10-04-2011, 09:44 AM
We might have the basis for an agreement here, then. And between you and me we're about 60% of this thread hehe.

Fred McKim
10-04-2011, 10:18 AM
Personally, I think it's being overly complicated by you guys. You get a percentage on the money you submit. End of the line.

The player renewing on their own is great. I think your model could be simplified by increasing the percentage rebated to 15% to compensate.

Christopher Mallon
10-04-2011, 10:30 AM
I'm just saying Fred... if you don't have the part about tracking affiliates in there for auto-renewals, then it's essentially the same program as before, which was abandoned due to disuse. In some cases, for this very reason.

Fred McKim
10-04-2011, 11:26 AM
I'm just saying Fred... if you don't have the part about tracking affiliates in there for auto-renewals, then it's essentially the same program as before, which was abandoned due to disuse. In some cases, for this very reason.

I think it was simply no longer advertized, but I could be wrong. Everything goes in cycles.

Anybody up for an LTIP Grant ? :)

Bob Gillanders
10-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Personally, I think it's being overly complicated by you guys. You get a percentage on the money you submit. End of the line.

The player renewing on their own is great. I think your model could be simplified by increasing the percentage rebated to 15% to compensate.

Fred has the right idea. If you send in the money, you get the commission. I have been thinking about being an affiliate myself. I often take cash or cheques from friends at the clubs and sent it in myself as a favour. So why not get a commission. However at 10%, blah, hardly worth it, but 15%, well maybe! :D

Christopher Mallon
10-04-2011, 02:18 PM
I think it was simply no longer advertized, but I could be wrong. Everything goes in cycles.

Even if it's no longer advertised, everyone who WAS using it still stopped.

Of course in the old days I believe they also got a magazine subscription.

Fred McKim
10-04-2011, 02:31 PM
I would be willing to put forward a motion:

CFC Club Affiliate: For $60 / year, a club (or other organization) can be affiliated with the CFC and receive a rebate of 15% on all full CFC membership fees and 5% on tournament membership fees collected and submitted within 7 days.

....

I'm willing to have this reworded. I'm also willing to negotiate on whether $60 is the right price or not (it would probably have to include HST/GST - or that could be an add-on).

Bob G. Want to second this ?

Christopher Mallon
10-04-2011, 02:36 PM
I don't see why we should encourage tournament memberships, personally.

Aris Marghetis
10-05-2011, 12:19 AM
Dutton Chess Club on Bayview was an affiliate for years -- as was the SCC.

It is of great benefit -- the organization breaks even after about 20 CFC memberships sold in a year.

So... if an individual organizer or club or organization sells more than 20 memberships per year, it is a worthwhile Program to have.

The program also provides greater incentive to TD's to "UP-Sell" the tournament membership fee to a full 1 year membership.
As an Organizer/TD who brings in at least 20 a year, I would like Organizers/TDs included!

Michael von Keitz
10-05-2011, 02:20 AM
CFC Club Affiliate: For $60 / year, a club (or other organization) can be affiliated with the CFC and receive a rebate of 15% on all full CFC membership fees and 5% on tournament membership fees collected and submitted within 7 days.

....

I'm willing to have this reworded. I'm also willing to negotiate on whether $60 is the right price or not (it would probably have to include HST/GST - or that could be an add-on).

Bob G. Want to second this ?

As Aris points out, organizers/arbiters may wish to affiliate themselves. I'd stick with "CFC Affiliate," as opposed to "CFC Club Affiliate." Commission in the 10-20% range sounds right, but, as a former user of the program, I'd love to hear Mark's thoughts. Maybe even 15% is too modest. I think I'd also tend to agree with Chris regarding the inclusion of tournament membership fees.

Ken Craft
10-05-2011, 07:29 AM
Are we convinced re-implementing this program will generate more revenue?

Fred McKim
10-05-2011, 07:33 AM
As Aris points out, organizers/arbiters may wish to affiliate themselves. I'd stick with "CFC Affiliate," as opposed to "CFC Club Affiliate." Commission in the 10-20% range sounds right, but, as a former user of the program, I'd love to hear Mark's thoughts. Maybe even 15% is too modest. I think I'd also tend to agree with Chris regarding the inclusion of tournament membership fees.

I called it CFC Club Affiliate, because otherwise it seemed to be getting confused with Provincial affiliate. It can be spelled out that individuals can qualify as a "club".

Bob Gillanders
10-05-2011, 08:52 AM
It can be spelled out that individuals can qualify as a "club".

Excellent. Sign me up. :D

Fred McKim
10-05-2011, 09:41 AM
Excellent. Sign me up. :D

I would see a membership being for example Mississauga Chess Club (Bob Gillanders) or just Mississauga Chess Club. The first example is an individual the second example is the club itself.

I guess we'd have to determine what portion the rebate would be on ? Pre-tax, pre GST/HST amounts, etc.

Maybe we can just say $5 on every adult membership and $3 on every junior or family membership. An optional $1 on tournament memberships.

Ken Craft
10-05-2011, 09:49 AM
Will this program increase our revenues and membership numbers?

Bob Gillanders
10-05-2011, 09:52 AM
I would see a membership being for example Mississauga Chess Club (Bob Gillanders) or just Mississauga Chess Club. The first example is an individual the second example is the club itself.


Fred, would it be necessary for an individual affiliate to be restricted to one club? I frequent 3 clubs (Mississauga, Burlington, Hamilton). Could I collect memberships from all 3 clubs under one affiliate fee?

Bob Armstrong
10-05-2011, 09:57 AM
Hi Ken:

At Scarborough CC, it helps to keep the policy that all SCC members must become members of the CFC - we'll get a commission on each of those lovely members - we're now somewhat over 100 members, likely in the range of 120 ( adult and junior ).

It also may encourage clubs with both CFC and non-CFC members, to promote CFC membership to the non-CFC'ers.

Bob A

Fred McKim
10-05-2011, 10:07 AM
Fred, would it be necessary for an individual affiliate to be restricted to one club? I frequent 3 clubs (Mississauga, Burlington, Hamilton). Could I collect memberships from all 3 clubs under one affiliate fee?

Sure use any one: you could call it the Gillanders Chess club. It's just ot try and get a sense of consistency to it.

Fred McKim
10-05-2011, 10:13 AM
Will this program increase our revenues and membership numbers?

This is one of those marketing exercises that I could put any number I want down for. It is bound to increase the membership somewhat, as organizers will have some tangible benefit for talking "on the fence" people into buying.

As for whether it will increase or decrease revenue, I'd say it's no worse than break even. I think that there won't be a huge demand immediately and we can get input from the affiilite club members to see if they thing the CFC is getting a good deal or not after a few months.

Fred McKim
10-05-2011, 10:15 AM
Hi Ken:

At Scarborough CC, it helps to keep the policy that all SCC members must become members of the CFC - we'll get a commission on each of those lovely members - we're now somewhat over 100 members, likely in the range of 120 ( adult and junior ).

It also may encourage clubs with both CFC and non-CFC members, to promote CFC membership to the non-CFC'ers.

Bob A

Bob: The proposal I'm making is that as an Affiliate Club Member, you only get the commission when they pay their memberships at the club. I think this is the proper starting point.

After a year or so, we can investigate actual clubs getting some kind of commission on actual CFC members they have (including the auto renewals, etc)... I know this is what Michael and Chris want.

Hal Bond
10-07-2011, 04:06 PM
Ken has crafted the key question - will this increase membership revenues or just redistribute existing money and create squabbles and extra tracking headaches for someone, followed by endless debate and adjudication of arguments for and against all claimants?

What is the best way to harness the energy of our promotional types to sell memberships far and wide and often?

Michael von Keitz
10-10-2011, 10:48 PM
A discussion surrounding the possible reintroduction of the Affiliate Program was initiated by Michael von Keitz. Poor advertising was identified as a drawback that may have led to the demise of the previous program. A specific scenario was presented: "$50 buy-in for 10% commission on membership sales. No restrictions. Memberships brought in by affiliates are tracked, but it's up to them to ensure repeat business." From there, it was clarified that the percentage referred to the CFC portion of membership dues (e.g. 10% of $36 on adult memberships). Auto-renewals were raised as an issue of the previous program, where it was agreed that affiliates should receive their commission from members they recruit, even if these members are set up to auto-renew. The proposed reincarnation of the program seemed to receive general support; however, there were some concerns raised as to whether the program could truly be expected to raise memberships and revenue - the answer being that it would be break even at worst, with the option of tracking its success always being available. Fred McKim indicated his willingness to work on a motion to present at the Winter Quarterly Meeting, which will be filed with Lyle upon its completion. Those interested in either seconding the motion or further discussing it are encouraged to contact Fred (fred_mckim@hotmail.com).