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Lyle Craver
01-15-2011, 01:59 AM
28. Motion 2011-C: (moved by Michael Barron, seconded by Anna Jin)

To amend section 1003 of the CFC Handbook:
"1003. Players: {Motion 2009-13 2009 AGM Nadeau/Lavin}
The following players shall be eligible to participate in each Youth Tournament provided they comply with the formal entry requirements of Article 1007:
(a) The qualifiers from that year's YCC's.
(b) The qualifiers from the CYCC to the WYCC of the previous year.
(c) The highest rating of each age category {open & female} of each Province {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}
(d) The host organizer may nominate three players for each category from the host location. {Amendment of Original Motion Barron/Langer}"

by adding the clause:

"(e) The former CYCC champions"

Bob Armstrong
01-15-2011, 08:23 PM
28. Motion 2011-C: (moved by Michael Barron, seconded by Anna Jin)

To amend section 1003 of the CFC Handbook:
"1003. Players: {Motion 2009-13 2009 AGM Nadeau/Lavin}
The following players shall be eligible to participate in each Youth Tournament provided they comply with the formal entry requirements of Article 1007:
(a) The qualifiers from that year's YCC's.
(b) The qualifiers from the CYCC to the WYCC of the previous year.
(c) The highest rating of each age category {open & female} of each Province {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}
(d) The host organizer may nominate three players for each category from the host location. {Amendment of Original Motion Barron/Langer}"

by adding the clause:

"(e) The former CYCC champions"

I understood that at one point the Youth Committee was debating whether this amendment should include as well, 2nd and 3rd place finishers in the prior year's CYCC.

QUESTION - What reasons were there that the number pre-qualifying were restricted to only the " champions " ?

Bob

Egidijus Zeromskis
01-15-2011, 11:21 PM
28. Motion 2011-C: (moved by Michael Barron, seconded by Anna Jin)

To amend section 1003 of the CFC Handbook:
"1003. Players: {Motion 2009-13 2009 AGM Nadeau/Lavin}
The following players shall be eligible to participate in each Youth Tournament provided they comply with the formal entry requirements of Article 1007:
(a) The qualifiers from that year's YCC's.
(b) The qualifiers from the CYCC to the WYCC of the previous year.
(c) The highest rating of each age category {open & female} of each Province {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}
(d) The host organizer may nominate three players for each category from the host location. {Amendment of Original Motion Barron/Langer}"

by adding the clause:

"(e) The former CYCC champions"


Would an additional "s" at the end of the (b) sentence diminish the need of (e)? [(b) The qualifiers from the CYCC to the WYCC of the previous years.]

(It is not related to the motion but to 1003. (c) - Would it be more appropriate to use "girls" instead of "female" in (c)? As in 1000 ... "Canadian Under 18 Championship Open and Girls")

Michael Barron
01-16-2011, 12:22 AM
Yes, Egis, you're right - (b) deals with top 3 finishers from the previous year.

I would think, the champions deserve a little bit more recognition - since the need for (e), which deals only with the champions, but from the previous years.

Hope, it clarifies the intent of the motion. :)

Bob Gillanders
01-16-2011, 11:15 PM
I would like to suggest we add:

(f) where there is no provincial qualifier, up to 3 players may be qualified at the discretion of the provincial youth coordinator. In the absence of a provincial official, the CFC executive would make the call.


This would avoid blocking a player from the CYCC who had no opportunity to compete to qualify.

Francisco Cabanas
01-17-2011, 12:45 AM
How is a player resident in the territories, Yukon, NWT and Nunavut, supposed to qualify for these tournaments?

I would like to suggest we add:

(g) The highest rating of each age category {open & female} of the territories (Yukon, North West Territories and Nunavut) {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}

Bob Gillanders
01-17-2011, 02:02 PM
I received this amendment motion from Governor Brammall:

Motion – Adding Pre-Qualifiers for CYCC

December 21, 2010

Moved: Stuart Brammall:; Seconded: Bob Armstrong

That section 1003 of the CFC handbook be amended to include the following:

(h) The top ten rated players in each age category in the country (as of may 1st prior to the CYCC).

Commentary:
The reasoning behind this is quite simple; these are our best players… and to exclude them would be detrimental to both the event and to the resulting WYCC team. It also ensures a minimum of ten players qualified in each section.

Note: I renumbered amendment from e to h for consistency.

Vladimir Birarov
01-17-2011, 03:44 PM
Suggested by Francisco Cabanas:
(g) The highest rating of each age category {open & female} of the territories (Yukon, North West Territories and Nunavut) {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}


This is, basically, extension of (c) which then should be:
(c) The highest rated of each age category {open & female} of each Province and Territory {as of May 1st prior to the CYCC}


Suggested by Bob Gillanders:
(f) where there is no provincial qualifier, up to 3 players may be qualified at the discretion of the provincial youth coordinator. In the absence of a provincial official, the CFC executive would make the call.


I'm afraid this will lessen (a lot) the value of the initial motion. Having this option, why would provincial coordinator (besides, of course, ON, AB, QC and BC) even try to organize qualifier?


Suggested by Stuart Brammall:
(h) The top ten rated players in each age category in the country (as of may 1st prior to the CYCC).
The reasoning behind this is quite simple; these are our best players …


Some of these "top ten", most likely, already here - "(b) The qualifiers from the CYCC to the WYCC of the previous year". For the rest, if they are "our best players", it shouldn't be a problem to prove this in one of the qualifiers, should it?

Fred McKim
01-17-2011, 03:58 PM
I'm afraid this will lessen (a lot) the value of the initial motion. Having this option, why would provincial coordinator (besides, of course, ON, AB, QC and BC) even try to organize qualifier?




I have organized Junior/Youth/Cadet tournaments in both NB and PEI over the years. In addition to qualifying players to national championships they were an event worth winning for their own merit.

Over the past 10-20 years a lot of similar organizers have gone over to running CMA events. We have 10-12 CMA tournaments per year in PEI. None of these organizers are interested in organizing CFC events.

In my province there are no players that would score 50% in any of the CYCC tournaments, so there is no real need for a qualifier.

I would consider organizing a PEI Junior or Youth tournament if a) I felt there would be a market and b) I didn't already organize the maximum number of events (6) per year I'm allowed, by my better half.

Stuart Brammall
01-17-2011, 04:14 PM
Some of these "top ten", most likely, already here - "(b) The qualifiers from the CYCC to the WYCC of the previous year". For the rest, if they are "our best players", it shouldn't be a problem to prove this in one of the qualifiers, should it?

It should be said that this motion was drawn up in consultation with Victor Itkine (CFC Member, Youth Committee, CYCC Organiser), who was the main force behind it.

I share some reservation about it, specifically that some kids may use it to opt out of the YCCs.

I am more worried about something else though, and that is that it is still not clear we are going to have enough YCCs to make sure those who should be playing get qualified. This motion provides a safety net-- if in the near future (maybe this year, maybe sometime after) the YCCs do not get orgaized, then there will be at least ten players qualified anyway.

Perhaps the date specified should be changed... say to the first rating list after OYCC or some such... that way players will not know if they have qualified by rating before deciding whether or not to play.

Vladimir Birarov
01-17-2011, 04:59 PM
I am more worried about something else though, and that is that it is still not clear we are going to have enough YCCs to make sure those who should be playing get qualified.
From Michael's report:

ONTARIO:
- Toronto Regional YCC : February,
- Windsor Regional YCC : February,
- West Toronto Qualifier : January - April,
- PMCA Qualifier : January - July,
- North Toronto Qualifier : March,
- Ontario YCC : May.

NORTHERN ONTARIO:
- Northern Ontario YCC : November, 77 qualified,
- Ontario francophone's YCC : April.

QUEBEC:
- Quebec YCC : November, 36 qualified,
- Quebec Junior Championship : February.

BRITISH COLUMBIA:
- Victoria Regional YCC : March,
- BC YCC : April.

ALBERTA:
- Alberta YCC : February.


8 in Ontario, 2 in Quebec, 2 in BC and 1 in Alberta (plus qualified to last year WYCC and the option of "highest rated from each province") - considering percentage of the players per province in the last "open" CYCC, looks enough to me ...

Bob Gillanders
01-17-2011, 05:12 PM
I believe there are 2 YCC's scheduled for Alberta.
The provincial championship as usual, and one at the Calgary Junior Chess Club.

Simon, can you confirm! :)

Stuart Brammall
01-17-2011, 05:14 PM
As I said, I am not only concerned about this year...

Also, if you are not concerned with making sure the top players in the age group qualify, I suggest you change the word to something else from "qualification".

We already know who is qualified (by that I means who plays chess at level high enough to maintain the quality of the event), and it seems to me that forcing kids to play in these YCC events must have some other motivation.

Bob Armstrong
01-17-2011, 05:28 PM
Hi Stuart:

As I understood it, the " qualification " system idea was based on the desire to get more kids in the provinces playing in tournaments, and thus to grow the CFC junior membership base. It was expected that the total number of kids playing in the YCC's + CYCC would far exceed the traditional 150 number in the CYCC.

The qualification system was not for the purpose of increasing the quality of the CYCC ( any YCC tournament could qualify anyone ).

Bob

Michael Barron
01-17-2011, 11:18 PM
Over the past 10-20 years a lot of similar organizers have gone over to running CMA events. We have 10-12 CMA tournaments per year in PEI. None of these organizers are interested in organizing CFC events.


Why? :confused:

Don't you think this is the main problem?

Why CMA can run Provincial qualifiers in every Province, but CFC can't?
What could we do to change that? :confused:

I would think, the new qualification system should encourage such organizers to run CFC events.
Do we have Provincial Affiliates in every Province?
What they are doing?

If they organize Provincial Youth Championship - they could qualify for CYCC as many players as they wish!

If not - the CFC Executive could allow every deserving player to play at CYCC.
We have already this rule in the Handbook - http://www.chess.ca/section_10.shtml :

"1015. Authority of the Board of Directors:

The CFC Board of Directors shall rule on any situation not covered by these regulations and shall have the authority to rule on any matter which is in dispute."

No need to repeat it in every section.

Fred McKim
01-18-2011, 10:20 AM
Why? :confused:

Don't you think this is the main problem?

Why CMA can run Provincial qualifiers in every Province, but CFC can't?
What could we do to change that? :confused:

I would think, the new qualification system should encourage such organizers to run CFC events.
Do we have Provincial Affiliates in every Province?
What they are doing?

If they organize Provincial Youth Championship - they could qualify for CYCC as many players as they wish!

If not - the CFC Executive could allow every deserving player to play at CYCC.
We have already this rule in the Handbook - http://www.chess.ca/section_10.shtml :

"1015. Authority of the Board of Directors:

The CFC Board of Directors shall rule on any situation not covered by these regulations and shall have the authority to rule on any matter which is in dispute."

No need to repeat it in every section.

The truth of the matter is that there really are no Provincial Associations in Atlantic Canada, there are only names on a piece of paper. Running of junior events have been abdicated to CMA and the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow "the CMA Finals". It appears the allure of team membership has overshadowed the fact that our provinces (and maybe SK and MB) are typically always taking it on the chin in these events, but still keep returning every year.

The question becomes how can the CFC draw even 5 players from each of these provinces to the CYCC. I'm not sure if there was some way we could make a team aspect out of this..

There is still the problem of growing a provincial organizing group, as the existing CFC organizers tend to have their hands full with regular CFC events and parents have already been sold over to CMA.

Vladimir Birarov
01-18-2011, 10:54 AM
The question becomes how can the CFC draw even 5 players from each of these provinces to the CYCC. I'm not sure if there was some way we could make a team aspect out of this..

This sounds like very good idea which also not hard to implement. We could maintain teams' scores during CYCC, lets say best result in 6 (out of 12) sections for each province, and award team prize(s) at the end.

Fred McKim
01-18-2011, 11:01 AM
This sounds like very good idea which also not hard to implement. We could maintain teams' scores during CYCC, lets say best result in 6 (out of 12) sections for each province, and award team prize(s) at the end.

This could be a start. Each province would have up to 12 "official" team members (one per group).

Lyle Craver
01-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Was not the whole point of the CYCC events that they be a mass participation event?

Sort of like the CFAX Victoria events of yesteryear that Lynn Stringer organized for so many years? These events routinely got 500-1000 kids participating which is amazing in a city the size of Victoria.

Fred McKim
01-18-2011, 02:44 PM
Was not the whole point of the CYCC events that they be a mass participation event?

Sort of like the CFAX Victoria events of yesteryear that Lynn Stringer organized for so many years? These events routinely got 500-1000 kids participating which is amazing in a city the size of Victoria.

At the moment, there is little incentive for one lone kid from an area to go to the CYCC knowing they will do well to score more than 1 point.

Bob Armstrong
01-18-2011, 02:54 PM
Hi Fred:

But they'd be coming to Ricmond Hill !!

Bob

Michael Barron
01-19-2011, 01:02 AM
This could be a start. Each province would have up to 12 "official" team members (one per group).

I would not limit the number of players.
Each province would have as many players as possible - but only the best result in a section counts towards team result.
Since not every province could have represenatives in all 12 sections, we could limit team competition to 6 best results from the province in any 6 sections.

Bob Gillanders
01-19-2011, 02:21 PM
Folks, I just got a very angry email from Governor Brammall. He is very upset that his motion to amend the CYCC qualification rules has not received the attention it deserves. I am in complete agreement with him.

Several amendment motions have been added to this thread where they have received inadequate discussion. This is the most urgent matter at this meeting, and unfortunately we have been consumed with other matters. I will start new threads now:

28e. Motion from Governor Barron
28f. Motion from Governor Gillanders
28g. Motion from Governor Cabanas
28h. Motion from Governor Brammall

I have to go out the door in a few minutes, so the respective Governors are welcome to post their motions ASAP and get the discussion going.

Thanks Stuart. :)

Valer Eugen Demian
01-19-2011, 06:56 PM
The point everyone is missing is that while CYCC is relatively well attended every single year, the problem lies with provincial YCCs! Those are poorly attended or migth not even happen. THOSE ARE THE PROBLEM!

I am not sure why this is discussed here and the Youth Committee is not left alone to deal with these situations as per the mandate we got. I have no problem receiving opinions and suggestions, but all has to be taken with a grain of salt. Most of the posters here have never been to a junior tournament in the past X years... How do they know what is good for juniors?

For those who believe parents have a great input, here is the news: each parent wishes (more or less) to bend the rules in order to be useful for their kid(s). This I have seen for sure since the mid to late 90s and it continues...